http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Why no one uses public transport en Sun, 17 May 2026 05:41:03 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99672 Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:37:02 +0000 DaveC 99672@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Mark, if your wife does get another bus to change at Ferrytoll, tell her when she gets on the first bus, to Ferrytoll, to tell the driver she will be changing at Ferrytoll for Livingston. If she makes the whole journey on Stagecoach, she can buy one ticket which allows unlimited travel all day on Stagecoach. Though I seem to recall you saying she got a Firstbus from Ferrytoll to Livingston? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99671 Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:29:51 +0000 Instography 99671@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I was reminded, watching Question Time, of Soutar's attempt to fund a referendum in Scotland opposing the repeal of clause 28. The vision of a modern independent Scotland. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99670 Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:21:26 +0000 crowriver 99670@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Stagecoach will soon have a whole Forth Bridge to themselves! </em></p> <p>When you put it like that, it's tempting to delve into the realm of conspiracy theories regarding donations to political parties, etc. It's all just a cockup though. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99657 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 23:15:01 +0000 LaidBack 99657@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes - only here would a public transport employee suggest walking!<br /> Stagecoach will soon have a whole Forth Bridge to themselves! Will they run more buses? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99642 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:27:21 +0000 Min 99642@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Perhaps she was trying to prevent Boomers from Booming on it? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99641 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:24:02 +0000 chdot 99641@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<br /> Woman. I suppose you can get it, but it is supposed to be for people coming home from work.</p> <p>"</p> <p>So the woman assumes your wife isn't coming home from work, or is trying to protect her from all those seats sat on by men in grubby overalls or??</p> <p>"</p> <p>The Cheap Trains Act 1883 marked the beginning of workers' train (and later, bus) services.</p> <p>"</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheap_Trains_Act_1883" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheap_Trains_Act_1883</a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99640 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:16:03 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 99640@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Consider my gast also flabbered.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99637 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 22:13:55 +0000 Baldcyclist 99637@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>More Stagecoach customer service...</p> <p>My wife did indeed get the bus through to Livingston today. On the way back, she goes into the office at the Ferrytol to ask when the next bus to Burntisland is....<br /> Woman. There isn't one.<br /> My wife. But I got one here.<br /> Woman. There is the 57, but that bus is for workers.<br /> My wife. Sorry? Can I not get that bus?<br /> Woman. That bus is for workers, you would be better walking into Inverkething, and getting the no 7.<br /> My wife. But I've got a broken ankle, how am I going to get to Inverkeithing?<br /> Woman. I suppose you can get it, but it is supposed to be for people coming home from work.</p> <p>Me. Flabbergasted! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99622 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:33:55 +0000 crowriver 99622@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Instography, yes, that's exactly it. </p> <p>Then these same people turn around and complain to anyone who'll listen how their household budgets are "under pressure", how they're having to cut back on things, unnecessary expenditure, etc. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99619 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 17:53:19 +0000 Instography 99619@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you think about how people describe costs, you see how they factor them into their decision making. Cars are essential, an upfront cost and a regular payment that is part of household budgeting and nothing really to do with making journeys. I mean, they buy the car, it's a possession not a mode of transport. </p> <p>All the incidental costs - tax and insurance etc - are costs associated with owning a car. They are impositions not costs associated with making any journeys.</p> <p>When people talk about buying fuel, they talk in terms of the total cost of filling up the car - feeding it. Those are lump sums associated with car use, not with any particular journey. Once the car has petrol in it, people don't have to part with any money to make a journey. Those journeys seem to be free.</p> <p>The only time I ever hear people talking about even the marginal cost of a journey is when they have to fill the car en route. So they'll maybe say that they spent £150 on petrol for a long weekend.</p> <p>So, short car journeys are free. Bus, train and taxi journeys involve them digging into their pocket for cash and handing it over. They cost real money. To get people to properly understand the cost of driving, you'd really need some kind of smart meter in it that would sit clocking up the fixed costs and deprecation even when the car's not moving and which would then whirr round like the fruit machine eyes of a greedy cartoon character as they started burning the petrol. That would make the costs transparent. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=3#post-99614 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:11:29 +0000 kaputnik 99614@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>He says that company runs far too few buses and always horrible rattling old wrecks</em></p> <p>There used to be a running joke along the lines of "<em>old buses don't die, they go to first Edinburgh</em>" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99613 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:11:19 +0000 minus six 99613@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I hear the moan about the boomers but that is a few less cars on the road</em></p> <p>aye, but the rest are fuming that since they don't make much use of these free bus passes, they should be given a hefty petrol rebate instead</p> <p>i kid you not -- this quaint notion got a hearty round of applause on radio scotia question time last autumn </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99611 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:58:07 +0000 cc 99611@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the big rules in Dutch transport planning seems to be <em>people do what's easiest</em> and that seems to be true here too. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99608 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:56:03 +0000 Lezzles 99608@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I hear the moan about the boomers but that is a few less cars on the road. Before my Dad retired he had to be prised from his car (a suped up Subaru estate which he he only grudgingly ever takes passengers in). Since he got his bus pass though he's been pootling all over the Lothians on the bus including planning all his hill walking exploits around the bus timetables. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99605 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:23:56 +0000 steveo 99605@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em> The only problem is you're not in a position to do anything about it,</em></p> <p>And if I were the world would have bigger problems... TREMBLE BEFORE ME PUNY MORTALS.... ahem... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99603 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:15:24 +0000 Dave 99603@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>petrol and (if you can put a figure on it) wear and tear? </em></p> <p>For us, 14p/mile for fuel and &gt; 8p/mile running costs. It costs around £2.20 for me to drive to work (still much cheaper than the bus though). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99601 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:13:20 +0000 crowriver 99601@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@steveo, great idea. The only problem is you're not in a position to do anything about it, unless 'steveo' is a moniker for George Osborne/Keith Brown. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99599 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:10:30 +0000 steveo 99599@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I've mooted in the past hiking up VED or fuel duty and issuing drivers with a "free" bus pass. That would make the drive/don't drive decision less about the embedded costs since upfront costs of both are absorbed at the same time, then its just petrol. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99594 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:51:48 +0000 LaidBack 99594@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Q: If you already own the car then do you factor the running costs into the equation even if you take the bus?</p> <p>A: Free public transport for car owners to help them out. Free bus pass with your next new car paid for by Ford etc?</p> <p><em>© Not so silly ideas 2013</em></p> <p>I wouldn't be happy as I don't have a car! Sure though that this could be used somehow as in recent survey a car is considered as much a necessity as 'white goods' in your kitchen. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99590 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:41:53 +0000 Cyclingmollie 99590@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Surprised no-one's mentioned the main problem: when you sit down the person behind you sneezes on the back of your head and continues to do so for the rest of the journey. Every time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99581 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:23:43 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 99581@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you already own the car then do you factor the running costs into the equation even if you take the bus? You're having to pay VED and insurance whether the car is left on the driveway or not, so presumably the only relevant factors to play off against the cost of the bus/train is petrol and (if you can put a figure on it) wear and tear? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99574 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:16:08 +0000 minus six 99574@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Another bother with the stagecoach fife commuter experience -</p> <p>Rush hour buses leaving Edinburgh city centre to Fife fill up quickly with boomers and their free bus passes</p> <p>Leaving some Fife commuters unable to get on the heaving full bus</p> <p>The boomers then all get off the bus at Blackhall or Cramond, leaving it half empty for the rest of the journey to Fife</p> <p>Typical boomer behaviour - they could get on the local lothian buses instead, but the fife buses are that wee bit quicker, as they don't stop so often en-route to the suburbs </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99572 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:04:06 +0000 Baldcyclist 99572@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I see that the other way round. On the train, unless it is very crowded I can usually get some work done. I can eat, walk about, visit the loo, or have a snooze. If I was driving I'd genuinely be wasting my time just in the act of driving (even given that quite a few folk enjoy driving), it would not be productive time.</em></p> <p>This is fine if you are on a longer journey, or going to work. If you just want to pop over to visit your sister who is normally just half an hour away, another hour each way on a train / bus is a fairly expensive premium to pay? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99570 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:58:15 +0000 steveo 99570@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>it would not be productive time. </em></p> <p>Unless driving is actually quicker in which case you might get some decent quality work done instead of just checking emails. Equally if you need to be somewhere to be at a meeting sometimes time really is the only factor. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99569 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:56:08 +0000 steveo 99569@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Which is almost a definition of unfair competition. </em></p> <p>Who said life was fair. </p> <p>If we want to convince people to do something which is less convenient there has to be an upside, it has be cheaper or better. Long distance buses are <em>never</em> better than <em>anything</em> so they need to be cheaper and since we are trying to get people not to use the cars they already own and run it needs to be significantly cheaper than the marginal cost. Petrol. Otherwise you might as well take the car. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99568 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:53:06 +0000 crowriver 99568@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Baldcyclist</p> <p><em>Trains are very good, but also very expensive. If you had (for financial reasons, or you can't walk perhaps) have to get buses for longer journeys it would drive you mad.</em></p> <p>That's all fair enough, I accept that inconvenience can be a big factor. It all depends what kind of journey you are making.</p> <p><em>It'n not just the cost of the overheads to take into account, there is also the cost of your time. How much is your time worth to you, imagine taking your work hourly rate, and plugging that into your calculations? The cost differential would drop / reverse? very quickly.</em></p> <p>I see that the other way round. On the train, unless it is very crowded I can usually get some work done. I can eat, walk about, visit the loo, or have a snooze. If I was driving I'd genuinely be wasting my time just in the act of driving (even given that quite a few folk <em>enjoy</em> driving), it would not be productive time. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99566 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:48:53 +0000 crowriver 99566@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>if public transport wants to be used it has to be cheaper than the petrol.</em></p> <p>Which is almost a definition of unfair competition. </p> <p>Instography's example of mobile phones is illuminating. Pay as you go is much cheaper if you don't use your phone a lot. However you have to pay up front for the hardware. With a contract, you get a 'free' phone, 'free' airtime/texts/data, etc. But you are locked into regular payments for at least 18 months, regardless of how much you use the phone. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99559 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:33:30 +0000 steveo 99559@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>Cost displacement is an important factor in selling things to people </em></p> <p>Also people mightn't have the money to buy things upfront. A LRT bus pass for example is a bit cheaper to buy annually than monthly but relies on you having ~£600 to front up. I know one person in my office who uses their bonus but I suspect most people would rather buy a big shiny thing and pay ~£50 a month for travel. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99556 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:30:54 +0000 kaputnik 99556@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>SWMBO is now SWMWTS? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9422&page=2#post-99555 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:30:34 +0000 Instography 99555@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Cost displacement is an important factor in selling things to people because they rarely do that thing of taking whole life costs, spreading them over time and then adding them to transactional costs. It's too hard. They can deal with one thing at a time. </p> <p>Mobile phone operators alter the balance of upfront, periodic and transactional costs so that people can pick a package that fits with their personal priorities - what I'll spend today, what I spend each month and what I spend each time I use it - but they all end up costing much the same. </p>