http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Cyclists "speeding" (Sunday Times rant) en Mon, 18 May 2026 20:13:42 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466&page=2#post-100115 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:44:25 +0000 ARobComp 100115@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Interesting discussion re GPS</p> <p>Re: furious cycling - happened to catch this article on the interwebs today<br /> <a href="http://www.bikehub.co.uk/featured-articles/cycling-and-the-law/">http://www.bikehub.co.uk/featured-articles/cycling-and-the-law/</a></p> <p><blockquote>CYCLING FURIOUSLY?<br /> It's an in-joke in cycling that cyclists can't be booked for speeding (see below) but can be fined for "pedalling furiously." Many cyclists list being cited for "cycling furiously" as one of their life ambitions. Professor David S. Wall, Head of the University of Leeds Law School, a one-time professor of criminal justice, once listed his hobby as: Cycling (Furiously)</p> <p>However, these legal eagles say they have been unable to find a reference to such a cycling offence in Blackstone's Criminal Practice or in Halsbury's Laws of England.</p> <p>Which is odd, as Christopher McKenzie, an Australian barrister, pointed BikeHub to these cases: Taylor v. Goodwin (1879) 4 QBD 228, a case where the Queen's Bench Division held, on appeal, that a cyclist was appropriately convicted by a magistrate for furious riding of a bicycle. The dicta of Justice Melor in the case has been cited and followed in a number of cases since: see, for example, Smith v. Kynnersley [1903] 1 KB 788 (cyclist not liable to pay bridge toll) and Corkery v. Carpenter [1951] I KB 102 (cyclist liable for offence where cycling drunk).</p> <p>There’s no specific offence of “furious cycling”, but as reported by Cambridge Cycling Campaign in 2007, fast-moving cyclists can sometimes be nabbed for “riding furiously”, an offence under the 1847 Town Police Clauses Act. This mentions (under section 28) it is an offence for “Every person who rides or drives furiously any horse or carriage, or drives furiously any cattle.”</p> <p>So, don’t go herding cows on your bike as you’ll be committing an offence twice over…</p> <p>However, cyclists – and not just Victorian ones – can be convicted for “wanton and furious driving”.</p> <p>The wording of S35 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58), s. 1(2)) is as follows:</p> <p>“Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years.”</p> <p>For instance, in 2009 supermarket worker Darren Hall was convicted of ‘wanton and furious driving’ after he had ridden on the pavement and hit and killed an 84-year old pedestrian. Hall was jailed for seven months and banned from driving a car for a year. Courts only have this power where a cyclist has injured another party by “wanton and furious driving or racing.”</p> <p></blockquote> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466&page=2#post-100110 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:07:17 +0000 PS 100110@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>This may or may not be pertinent, but I've noticed that many GPS devices have some sort of position correction programming in them - my Garmin asks if I'm using it on the road and uses that info to help locate me, for instance, while on today's train journey Google Maps on my iPhone kept correcting my position to the nearest road, rather than on the railway line. Had I been Stravaing, I suspect I would have appeared to be slowing down and speeding up quite erratically and dramatically, depending on where the nearest piece of road was. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100109 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:51:57 +0000 fimm 100109@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The CTC thread is rather nice for that as well, no we won't talk about a new slogan for the CTC (on a cycling forum), we want to talk about fonts...<br /> :-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100102 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:27:06 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 100102@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I love CCE thread creep - you always learn so much! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100099 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:16:01 +0000 Smudge 100099@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Snowy, hmm good point, jamming as opposed to removal of service. Now you mention that I have heard of the Ofcom notices somewhere before, should have remembered! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100075 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:41:53 +0000 Snowy 100075@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Smudge GPS jamming takes place fairly regularly around the British Isles for military training purposes. OFCOM issues awareness notices about this...I happen to subscribe to them and they look like this example:<br /> ------------------------------------<br /> Dates: Between 1 to 11 October 2012 inclusive.</p> <p>Times: Intermittent for 1hr slots between 0700BST and 2130BST.</p> <p>Location of MULTIPLE jammers:</p> <p>A. The Little Minch and North Minch northwards from Waternish Point 57-36N 006-38W to Stoer Head 58-14N 005-24W, including Sound of Raasay and Inner Sound.<br /> B. Within 35 miles of Faraid Head 58-36N 004-46W.</p> <p>Frequency: A 24 MHz band centred around 1176.45 MHz (GPS L5), 1227.60MHz (GPS L2) and 1575.42MHz (GPS L1).</p> <p>Contact Details: In an emergency any vessel may request an abatement of jamming via VHF through Emergency cease jam via the CG, the Jamming Station (call sign: Loch Ewe / Cape Wrath GPS Jamming), or by telephone to Joint Warrior Duty Controller 01436 674321 ext. 4372.</p> <p> It is stressed that, as in previous exercises, Safety of Life operations will at all times take precedence over exercise activities.<br /> ------------------------------------ </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100063 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:47:26 +0000 neddie 100063@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>One of the reasons the US govt switched off the GPS degradation (or added error) is that it was relatively easy for an undesirable force to defeat.</p> <p>It is possible to recover the accuracy by implementing a ground based GPS repeater station, in a system known as differential GPS (DGPS). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100041 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:19:50 +0000 steveo 100041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>General principle of law, you are responsible for any animal which should be under your control.</em></p> <p>I wonder if the same principle will be extended when cars become automated. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100038 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:12:11 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 100038@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>Are there requirements to have your horse under control at all times which would come in to effect if you tried to claim the horse was in control and was the one driving furiously?</em>"</p> <p>General principle of law, you are responsible for any animal which should be under your control. The horse could be Mr Ed, you're still responsible for how it behaves.</p> <p>The no speed limit thing is sort of connected with there being no requirement to have a speedo on a bike, but more specifically the legislation states that it is an offence which can be commited by someone driving a 'motor' vehicle. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100034 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 11:47:37 +0000 Morningsider 100034@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Arellcat - Section 35 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 only extends to England and Wales.</p> <p>Section 28 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847 only extends to England, Wales and Northern Ireland - unusually, only extended to cover Wales in 1987.</p> <p>While I do like the idea of furious cycling - not that I practice it much these days - it isn't an offence in Scotland and I seriously doubt anyone would be charged with it elsewhere in the UK, as there are more appropriate modern road traffic offences. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100008 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:58:04 +0000 wee folding bike 100008@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Can you be done for going round Tesco with a furious Findus lasagne now? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-100006 Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:44:58 +0000 Smudge 100006@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@Arobcomp All the sattelites were originally up there for the US military and their allies/friends/paying customers to use, after a while it became accepted that it should be available pretty much for all. Back in the day there was a fairly significant error built into the signal used by the civvy receivers, (100m iirc) but this was reduced/removed (I was told by source unverified, therefore it's just an anecdote and not reliable!) in order to improve safety for aircraft using gps.<br /> Currently, civvy gps is <em>relatively</em> accurate, however military gps units are able to decrypt an encoded signal which allows them to achieve optimal accuracy, something to do with two signals allowing them to correct for deviation caused by the ionisphere, can't remember details!<br /> I have experienced the situation you describe in the Solent where the civ gps is effectvely switched off, (my personal gps handheld was leaping a grid square side to side at random!) in practice a large error is introduced, to ensure only those and such as those can use gps. Didn't know it had ever been done in the UK though, interesting! Though I'm sure I've been tld that the US Govt still claim it has never been disabled.... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99994 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:57:49 +0000 Arellcat 99994@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I am not a lawyer, but the last time I went delving I found a few nuggets of information about furious driving.</p> <p>The 'Offences Against the Person Act 1861', <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/24-25/100/section/35">section 35</a>, refers to 'wanton or furious driving' which is invoked once in a while, but for this one you have to actually injure or kill someone. There is a prospective amendment in the Road Safety Act 2006, which would by discretion mandate furious driving <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/49/section/28">to that of mechanically propelled vehicles</a>, thus carried forward to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 s28, and s33, "<a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/49/section/33">Alternative verdict on unsuccessful manslaughter prosecution</a>". Bicycles and similar human powered devices would in this case be exempt.</p> <p>There is also the 'Town Police Clauses Act' from 1847 that in s28 refers to the <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/89/section/28">furious driving of horses, cattle or carriages</a>, and is sub-referenced in the paragraph entitled "<a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/10-11/89/section/61">Penalty on drivers misbehaving</a>". That act doesn't define what would be considered furious, though.</p> <p>Are these laws specific to England and Wales? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99993 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:26:40 +0000 PS 99993@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I suspect horses aren't regarded as sentient beings by the law... Which is interesting, given that the law is, of course, an ass. </p> <p>IGMC... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99984 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:34:43 +0000 rust 99984@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>With regards to that, what are the legal implications of a horse being sentient?</p> <p>Are there requirements to have your horse under control at all times which would come in to effect if you tried to claim the horse was in control and was the one driving furiously? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99981 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:15:24 +0000 Morningsider 99981@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>No such offence, in Scotland at least. The closest is in Section 129(7) of the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984:</p> <p>"(7)A person who in a road rides or drives furiously, recklessly or carelessly a horse or other animal (whether or not that horse or animal is attached to a cart or carriage) commits an offence." </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99979 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:06:23 +0000 crowriver 99979@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@eddie_h, the specific offence is "driving furiously", which applies to bicycles, horses, presumably various forms of horse-drawn carriage too. Pre-dates motor vehicles. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99968 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 20:49:18 +0000 neddie 99968@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>There are no 'speed limits' for cyclists, as there is no legal requirement for cyclists to carry a speedometer*.</p> <p>So you can't get done for speeding on a bike. However, you can get prosecuted for 'pedalling with fury' - whatever that means...</p> <p><em>* Sorry if this is teaching your Granny to suck eggs</em> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99961 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 20:15:12 +0000 kaputnik 99961@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>GPS is rubbish in forests, due to near impossibility of seeing the sky in any direction apart from straight up, which makes it very difficult to plot precise locations of ants nests. Or to find them again 3 years after they were first plotted. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99946 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 19:00:07 +0000 ARobComp 99946@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Back in the day accuracy of GPS was mainly down to the military (or so I was told when we were in the solent and informed over the radio that all GPS was likely to be highly inaccurate due to military accuracy in the area) although I think that now this is less so. Although I was racing off southampton during the london bombings an we were having significant trouble with our GPS bouncing all over the place, random altitudes and locations etc, so who knows. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99941 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:53:23 +0000 Dave 99941@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Although unless you leapt from 0-30mph at the start of the four second window (impressive!) it's still possible to make a pretty accurate interpolation. If your speed didn't vary at all it would completely accurate, but even a generous 5mph increase would only throw you out by ~10m?</p> <p>A second doesn't seem like much when it takes two or three minutes to thrash out a segment, although I won't say that when I'm 1s off the next highest position!</p> <p>I'm not sure how sophisticated either the GPS handset hardware or their software interpolation is, but if I can think of it in a few off seconds while the kettle's brewing, you'd assume it probably does something along those lines? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99938 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:29:15 +0000 kaputnik 99938@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>people recording with their phones apparently have them pinging the GPS satellite every 4 seconds</em></p> <p>Indeed, with a 4 second ping at say 30mph, you would travel 53 metres in that 4 seconds, so could be anywhere within that - and include with that and a GPS (in)accuracy in a built up area, which could be in the region of say 40 or so metres, you could be 90m away and Strava still thinks you're in the correct position. Doesn't sound a lot, but over short distances could greatly over (or under, if you aren't happy with your time :) ) estimate the riders speed. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99936 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:14:56 +0000 fimm 99936@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you read the link that edd1e_h gives in the OP, there's a lot of very techie stuff about the accuracy of GPS devices (and some slightly less techie stuff about Chris Hoy's top speed being 48mph in a velodrome) which goes to show that the Sunday Times article is, er, not worth the paper it is printed on. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99935 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:08:42 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 99935@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>What Cyclops said.</p> <p>I got 6th best on a short stretch last week, not specifically trying, but just happened to have a transit going ahead of me at a convenient speed and I knew I could shelter from the wind for a bit behind him. Averaged 28mph. The top average on that stretch is 44mph, which I'm just not sure is physically possible there.</p> <p>Another aspect was explained to me by earthowned that people recording with their phones apparently have them pinging the GPS satellite every 4 seconds, which can give quite a margin of error. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99932 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:48:19 +0000 Cyclops 99932@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Strava attracts more than its fair share of bogus tracks. I've heard of people using motorbikes, I've personally seen someone riding down the Granites to Innerleithen and back sat 6 inches from the bumper of a friend's van who was driving in front (I couldn't think of any other reason why someone would do this) and it doesn't take much to actually produce fake tracks sitting at your PC.</p> <p>Although I upload stuff to Strava it's more for personal comparison now rather than trying to compete against people who can seemingly ride up a mile long 1 in 5 climb at 25mph. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99925 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:26:25 +0000 kaputnik 99925@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Anyone who has ever tried to ride a bike, at speed, even over short distances, can instantly clock how outlandishly innacurate these Strava claims are. These journalists on the other hand... I note they've got so little to say on the matter that 50% of their article is images. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99909 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:17:38 +0000 neddie 99909@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/bonsai_bonus/8464981440/"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8511/8464981440_fd942204dd.jpg"></a> </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99884 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 13:46:31 +0000 Dave 99884@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Bit of an embarrassment for the Sunday Times, but it doesn't sound like they're actually that interested in reality regardless.</p> <p>Since in free-flowing traffic the average motorist is going over 30mph, perhaps the real headline should have been "cyclists racing against the clock still going slower than school run mums"? </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99872 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:37:51 +0000 crowriver 99872@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The editor of the Times has changed recently too. Maybe not much time left for their Cities Fit For Cycling campaign... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9466#post-99871 Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:27:37 +0000 kaputnik 99871@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I calculated from the fastest cyclist segment quoted in the article that the average speed involved was 30mph. (Note, this is the fastest time quoted in the paper article and differs slightly it would seem from the actual Strava dataset)</p> <p>In the same paper, a few pages removed from that ubstantiated nonsense of an article, they apparently stated that serial-speeder (and mobile-phone-while-drivering) Chris Huhne's offences were "relatively minor".</p> <p>But the cyclists must still be hanged because one outrageously fast cyclist was able to reach the speed limit for a few hundred meters. </p>