http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: "Poor car-owning households spend more than a quarter of income on motoring" en Mon, 18 May 2026 23:00:23 +0000 http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103295 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 17:13:44 +0000 lionfish 103295@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>what bdellar said! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103293 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 16:34:46 +0000 Instography 103293@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>If you follow Owen Jones on twitter (@OwenJones84) you'll get all the Guardian-style socio-political ranting you need. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103279 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:28:45 +0000 bdellar 103279@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>It's worth remembering that cycling is not easy to get into if you're starting from scratch. If you're not fit, you can't cycle fast. You won't have the guts to take the lane, and if you do, cars will get annoyed because you're too slow because of your fitness. It's dangerous and scary.</p> <p>Which is why we need safe cycle paths. Then switching from car use is easy. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103271 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:48:54 +0000 Dave 103271@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yes - but while we're all subjected to the Daily Mail (whenever they touch on cycling it seems to be posted across all the internet by cyclists, perversely increasing their ad revenue) it's not always the case that you get exposed to the other side. I can't remember reading many Guardian rants in the Daily Mail style (not that I read the Guardian either. Probably there is an equivalent somewhere).</p> <p>When it comes to anything as tricky as welfare I find it best to read a wide breadth of obsessive rants, allowing me to find the one that is least jarring to my pre-held beliefs. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103248 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 13:42:00 +0000 Instography 103248@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Surely that's what the Daily Mail is for - to pick up on a gross caricature and use it to justify a policy that will affect far more ordinary people? The common realities, as opposed to Ray, your stunt double for Aunt Sally, have already been well rehearsed in less frothing style by Shelter, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and even by DWP's own analysis. The simple fact is that the levels of benefits affected by the cap come about by a combination of low wages (which lead to tax credits) and high rents, particularly private rents in London and the south east (which lead to housing benefit). It has almost nothing to do with people like Ray.</p> <p>It's a paradox of coalition policy that they are trying to cut benefits that directly help not the recipients in particular but employers and landlords. But then maybe that's worth it for the greater benefit of encouraging people to see the roots of the problem in poor people, whose benefits need to be capped, rather than bankers, whose bonuses somehow don't need to be capped. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103244 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 13:21:16 +0000 Dave 103244@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Going a bit OT, but I quite enjoy (if don't necessarily agree with) <a href="http://simple-living-in-suffolk.co.uk/2012/02/a-feckless-family-fruitlessly-frittering-financial-future-away/">Simple Living in Suffolk</a> who occasionally picks up on stuff like this (see link for rant). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103233 Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:27:01 +0000 Instography 103233@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>When making the spending choices that most people make without much thought can be considered 'bad' and contributory to your further impoverishment, you're already poor. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103137 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:39:46 +0000 fimm 103137@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Lots of mentions of cycling in the comments, though! </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103131 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 17:24:27 +0000 Darkerside 103131@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Think I ditched my car spending spreadsheet, but from memory in a year and a half I did just over 20,000 miles on a £650 Volvo 940 estate. It did a religious 31mpg and I sold it on for £150. Insurance over two years was about £1400 (young and male...), servicing £600 (you can fix most things with a hammer) and tax £240. Fuel about £4.5k.</p> <p>Working out at a total of a bit over £7k, or 35p per mile. Seems reasonable for costs at the cheap end of the scale (albeit with slightly daft mileage).</p> <p>Definitely prefer having the bike(s...) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103118 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:50:44 +0000 PS 103118@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/06/live-city-dont-need-car">If you live in a city, you don't need a car</a></p> <p>Warning: no mention of cycling in the article. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103084 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 15:09:59 +0000 Smudge 103084@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC nope not giving up cycling, no chance! Just selecting the most appropriate vehicle for me for the individual task(s) :-)</p> <p>For those with enquiring minds re fuel consumption, fuelly.com can be a useful tool/browse. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103066 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:29:06 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 103066@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"<em>'Poor' people are often 'poor' because of bad spending choices as opposed to not earning enough.</em>"</p> <p>'Often' might be stretching it. Sometimes certainly. But having grown up on a council estate poor people are '<em>often</em>' poor because, well, they don't have enough money, combined with essentials being too expensive (viz. gas costs continually rising).</p> <p>Reminds me of a news report recently on poverty in the UK and they interviewed an air-headed student in St Andrews (I think) who declared, "Not being rude, but, like, couldn't poor people just work a bit harder?" </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103064 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:22:56 +0000 neddie 103064@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>'Poor' people are often 'poor' because of bad spending choices as opposed to not earning enough. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626&page=2#post-103063 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:22:55 +0000 Arellcat 103063@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>I managed for about 12 years in Edinburgh without a car and since we got one I've found it's an excellent way to haemorrhage money</em></p> <p>I've often thought that owning a car is the best reason for not owning one ever again. I generally figured on about £500 per year to cover insurance and VED. Servicing was generally something you did when the MOT tester came out sucking his* teeth, and was often in the £250 ballpark for an older vehicle that needed tyres or brakes or a fan belt or welding or some other black hole of money. With a motorbike the money I saved on VED basically went towards servicing each year instead, resulting in a happier MOT man*.</p> <p>* In my experience, they're all men, they're invariably grumpy, and they're all a little bit scary.</p> <p>Since fuel is proportional to use, and with car and then bike averaging 35mpg between them, I realised that it was more fun to spend that money on bicycles and accessories, and keep my brain working at the processing speed it preferred. In amongst cycling most weeks of the year I rarely exceeded 2000 miles a year in any vehicle—say 60 gallons, or somewhat over 250 litres. That's £350 a year or so on fuel at today's prices, so it becomes quite easy to be spending the best part of £1000 a year maintaining and driving a vehicle, and that's not even for a regime of driving most days. I once had a colleague who commuted about 100 miles a day, five days a week, but car shared; the cost of fuel on even 8000 miles a year would've been horrendous; imagine the cost without car sharing. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103057 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:15:38 +0000 Dave 103057@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Ah, cross-post with WC. £10pw for all motorists, not just poor ones. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103056 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:14:57 +0000 Dave 103056@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I'm halfway through a project to digitise the costs of our current car; I've now got every tank of fuel in a spreadsheet with the mileage covered for each. I need to add all the garage bills to get the true picture however.</p> <p>IIRC in the first year we spent around 10p/mile on maintenance (i.e. on top of fuel, insurance, VED and all other standing costs) but it has been less since then.</p> <p>One thing that jumped out at me was something like £10pw set aside for depreciation. That's £520 a year, which seems aggressive for someone in poverty who buys bargain used cars and takes good care of them (read: can't afford to abuse them). </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103050 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:06:13 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 103050@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>But the average costs stated are not just for those in 'motoring poverty' but for ALL motoring. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103041 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:39:45 +0000 kaputnik 103041@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>there will be plenty such new warrantied cars on the road </em></p> <p>If those are the sorts driven by those in "motoring poverty" then that article really is a case of reverse-QED. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103039 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:29:25 +0000 crowriver 103039@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>then proceeded to.... drive around the wee town centre in circles beeping at girls.</p> <p>I noticed a lot of that going on in Kirkwall when I was in Orkney on holiday. Driving round and round the same block. Sad. It's a nice town otherwise.</em></p> <p>Aye, it was a bit like that 30 years ago too. In those days most of the young farmer's sons/fishermen had motocross bikes, but a few of the older/higher earning ones had souped up Escort XR3i shag wagons in which they cruised around the narrow streets at low speed. That was before taking off at high speed around the rural roads. 'Dyke busters' the locals used to call them, due to their propensity to crash at high speed into dry stanes in the middle of the night... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103037 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:12:53 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 103037@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>Yep, under warranty - but you can't discount that from the average as there will be plenty such new warrantied cars on the road (as evidenced by the thread on a 12th monthly rise in new car sales in a row). So the 'nil' return from those cars will balance out the major works to others.</p> <p>And on mpg, a lot of modern cars are easily 60mpg 'combined', so probably make 40mpg in town driving (my car is around 50mpg combined, and comes out about 35mpg in town driving if the computer is to be believed).</p> <p>Best MPG I ever got was coming back from Lewis last year when the temperature sensor blew, so thought we were constantly overheating. Nursed it at 50mph all the way - was shattered after that drive (mainly through worry the car was going to die on us at any point, though thankfully we were on the mainland by then). But that's by the by ;) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103036 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:05:06 +0000 kaputnik 103036@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>In the past 7 or 8 years my maintenance costs have amounted to about 4 new tyres.</em></p> <p>Have they been new cars covered under warranty? Or have you just been immensely lucky with mechanicals?<br /> Never having owned a car, I can only go by hearsay from sister / brother-in-law / colleagues / car-owning forumites trying to keep second-hand motors on the road and forking out hundreds a go every time the exhaust falls off. If it only costs a tenner a week to buy a car (which is what the article quotes) then that's cheaper than a Lothian bus pass and would frankly seem cobblers.</p> <p>I'm assuiming you're not going to get anywhere near 40mpg doing 6 miles each way, twice a day in stop-start traffic and from a cold start. I've always assumed that it's not a linear relationship between distance driven and fuel used. That is, you only reach the quoted optimum fuel economies after a couple of miles and once the engine warms up and if you can more-or-less keep the car going at a fairly constant speed; if that's the case, that the 2 miles to the shop probably uses something disproportionately similar to the 6 miles to work and 6 miles to work through town probably similar to 10 miles down a major road, so on, so forth. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103035 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:04:21 +0000 PS 103035@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@WC You've got a nice new motor though - maintenance costs will increase exponentially for those punters who have older/second hand cars (which you'd assume those threatened by fuel poverty have). On the other hand, you lose more money through the depreciation in value of a new car... </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103034 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 13:01:22 +0000 cc 103034@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>then proceeded to.... drive around the wee town centre in circles beeping at girls.</em></p> <p>I noticed a lot of that going on in Kirkwall when I was in Orkney on holiday. Driving round and round the same block. Sad. It's a nice town otherwise. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103031 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:51:29 +0000 chdot 103031@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>"Does that mean I get chucked out of the gang?! ;-)"</p> <p>If you mean CCE - only ever chucked the Chinese spammers out. </p> <p>IF you <em>stopped</em> cycling, you'd be chucking yourself out. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103029 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:47:36 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 103029@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@kappers, not sure. </p> <p>Basing entirely on my own situation and not at all on any fact-based research, £971 as an 'average' insurance cost seems immense - I'd be more inclined to believe £420 (ours is even less than that and we've got a 'hot' car - though no points and parked on a driveway and low annual mileage helps).</p> <p>My maintenance costs in the last year have been.... Nil. In the past 7 or 8 years my maintenance costs have amounted to about 4 new tyres.</p> <p>12 miles a day (working days) = 60 miles. 2.4 gallons = 25mpg, which is very low these days. At, say, 40mpg, 2.4 gallons would get you 96 miles, or almost 20 miles per day. There are people who commute more than that by car, but equally those lazy sods who will use the car for 4 miles per day, which over a week would only use 1.2 gallons. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103025 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:39:51 +0000 PS 103025@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@crowriver Same thing, really. ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103024 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:38:27 +0000 Smudge 103024@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>I have to confess I'm currently looking at putting my motorbike back on the road (or replacing it with an equally old/cheap big bike)because the costs of using it sometimes instead of bike and train are pretty comparable (and yes I do know the *full* costs!) And holding down two jobs the odd and long hours make an extra "spare" hour on the odd day a very attractive prospect. :-/<br /> Does that mean I get chucked out of the gang?! ;-) </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103023 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:36:23 +0000 kaputnik 103023@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>The article mentions "motoring poverty" as if it is something that needs cured by reducing the cost of motoring vs. reducing the need for motoring by providing more, better and less-expensive alternatives.</p> <p>I kind of think that the article is actually downplaying the true cost of motoring (they've got no real vested interest to make it seem as expensive as it really is) For instance, googling suggests the UK average car insurance premium is £971. Which would put the calculation for weekly insurance costs in the "study" (£420) under half of the actual average. £250 per year on maintenance seems hugely generous, last time I had to stump up for some repairs to a front-wheel drive CV joint it was more than that alone. And they've budgeted for 2.4 gallons of fuel a week, which would unlikely even cover my 12 miles a day commuting by bike.</p> <p><em>“To make any meaningful difference to those on the lowest incomes the rate will need to be cut much further.”</em></p> <p>That's some perversly backwards logic, which doesn't surprise me at all! And it hardly surprises me that the rent-a-quote shadow minister for cars is of exactly the same mind and almost fell over herself to get the phrase "ease the pressure on families" in her statement. I wonder would any minster be standing up saying that we need to cut the duty on tobacco because "hard working families are drowning under the price of cigarettes"? No, they wouldn't, but until we get a governmental and social acceptance that for many people motoring (or the amount of motoring they do) is an optional not a necessity, we won't get much change. It's recognised that we tax tobacco how we do to discourage its use and to meet the costs of its negative side effects on the population. However, fuel duty is just the government screwing "hard working families". </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103021 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:27:38 +0000 crowriver 103021@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p><em>But we get them anyway because <strike>that is how Britain is just now</strike> everyone else has got one.</em></p> <p>FTFY. I think this is the crux of the matter: conformity, fitting in. The complete opposite of freedom, in fact. </p> http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9626#post-103019 Wed, 06 Mar 2013 12:24:08 +0000 lionfish 103019@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <p>@PS and DaveC. I agree with both your posts. People do seem to force themselves often into needing lots of cars. (don't know what I did with the earlier post I was writing, but it said) my parents seem like a good example of this, they decided when moving to the area they now live to move to a small village a few miles from a smallish town (that has a train station). My dad works in a larger-town ~20 miles away (very near the station there). If they'd lived in the small town he could have taken the train to work every day, and pretty well done away with the car. Mum drives to work almost every day (works in village now, about a mile from home). I figure they've effectively chosen to 'need' cars...</p> <p>Also I was getting annoyed by the lack of actual info on what fuel duty's been doing (in real terms).</p> <p>so figured it out myself!</p> <p><a href="http://lionfishy.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/fuel-duty/" rel="nofollow">http://lionfishy.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/fuel-duty/</a></p> <p>Some people *do* need cars (e.g. the job might require moving lots of heavy stuff across lots of the country), but most people really don't need to be driving everyday... guess we'll just keep campaigning! </p>