CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Spokes

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Spokes - are they worth it ? http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Topic: Spokes - are they worth it ? en Wed, 13 May 2026 02:13:59 +0000 chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104749 Sun, 17 Mar 2013 11:42:34 +0000 chdot 104749@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ F. VOLUNTEERS NEEDED a. Sun April 28 - volunteer needed to help at a Sustrans stall at the Scottish Bike Show in Glasgow, where we have been offered a corner for Spokes materials. Travel will be paid, but you MUST be a member of Spokes AND of Sustrans. Contact Judy.Cantley[AT]btopenworld.com. b. In the recent survey of spokes members we gave a choice of online or paper completion. Unfortunately more paper forms were returned than we expected, and it would be very helpful if one or two people [with internet access at home] could volunteer to enter a batch, ideally 50-100 forms. If you can help, ideally in around the last week of March, contact DaveduFeu[AT]gmail.com. c. We have plenty copies of new Spokes Bulletin 115 still available. If you would like a pile - for example to leaflet bikes in central Edinburgh or your local shopping area, please contact Spokes [Haymarket and Waverley bike racks have been done!] Dave du Feu Spokes 16.3.13 <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1303-16-circular-to-all.txt" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1303-16-circular-to-all.txt</a> you may wish to sign if you support this. F. VOLUNTEERS NEEDED a. Sun April 28 - volunteer needed to help at a Sustrans stall at the Scottish Bike Show in Glasgow, where we have been offered a corner for Spokes materials. Travel will be paid, but you MUST be a member of Spokes AND of Sustrans. Contact Judy.Cantley[AT]btopenworld.com. b. In the recent survey of spokes members we gave a choice of online or paper completion. Unfortunately more paper forms were returned than we expected, and it would be very helpful if one or two people [with internet access at home] could volunteer to enter a batch, ideally 50-100 forms. If you can help, ideally in around the last week of March, contact DaveduFeu[AT]gmail.com. c. We have plenty copies of new Spokes Bulletin 115 still available. If you would like a pile - for example to leaflet bikes in central Edinburgh or your local shopping area, please contact Spokes [Haymarket and Waverley bike racks have been done!] Dave du Feu Spokes 16.3.13 <a href="http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1303-16-circular-to-all.txt" rel="nofollow">http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1303-16-circular-to-all.txt</a> SRD on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104725 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:15:48 +0000 SRD 104725@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I honestly couldn't tell you if I get a membership card or not (don't think so though). But presumably what laidback means is there a no member specific benefits (other than delivery of information). crowriver on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104724 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:11:58 +0000 crowriver 104724@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ There is no Spokes membership card That's odd. I receive one every year by post... LaidBack on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104723 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 18:00:59 +0000 LaidBack 104723@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Interesting thinking back to the original Cycling Scotland forum. It briefly became very popular with some here using it to arrange rides. Then it got closed down as I believe the forum was being used to express opinions - not all of them complimentary about CS! It was then re-started but no idea how well frequented it is now. CCE forum took its place as far as I was concerned - debates here seem more constructive. With regards Spokes: Although the world of virtual is starting to overtake the actual, I still think getting people to speak and be questioned at meetings is useful. This takes organisation so I don't be-grudge a voluntary contribution. There is no Spokes membership card so events such as these (and the Spokes Sunday rides) are open to all. I do accept that I may have some commercial conflict as the Spokes aim to get more families cycling could mean some extra sales! Yes - I know the QBC doesn't succeed here. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104666 Sat, 16 Mar 2013 10:53:40 +0000 chdot 104666@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ <a href="http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2009/08/05/government-relies-on-spokes-statistics" rel="nofollow">http://cyclingedinburgh.info/2009/08/05/government-relies-on-spokes-statistics</a> chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=3#post-104392 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:11:42 +0000 chdot 104392@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "There are not that many regular posters, really" That depends which way you are looking at it. There are a few who post a lot (yeah including me). Some who say something almost every day. There is a bigger category of 'irregular, but when something needs adding'. Some people who mostly just add (useful) info. There are a few people who have posted two or three times over two or three years. I'm still a bit surprised at the number of people who register and never post. Not a problem - unless they are too shy/feel intimidated. fimm on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104384 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:54:26 +0000 fimm 104384@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The good thing about this forum is it is not seen as being "the voice of" any other organisation. So one can get a good debate going like this thread. There are not that many regular posters, really, I think? chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104380 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:31:52 +0000 chdot 104380@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "if CCE had been a forum on the Spokes site" Part of the reason CCE was set up is because Spokes did have a forum on its site. But it was hardly used. CyclingScotland had one which was probably even less visible. I had a coffee conversation with Mr. <a href="http://www.citycycling.co.uk/">.citycycling</a>. We agreed the concept and the name and a couple of weeks later emailed our 'mail lists'. People seem to like it. Though people go and others join (and some have been here for ever). There are far more 'observers' - but that's all fine! Cyclingmollie on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104378 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:12:37 +0000 Cyclingmollie 104378@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I don't think the criticism levelled here at Spokes would have been as strong if CCE had been a forum on the Spokes site. I think Spokes has been overtaken by Web 2.0, the democratic web or whatever you want to call it. We expect to be heard as individuals in organisations now. When Spokes started its handbook was typed by the secretariat of Edinburgh Voluntary Organisations or some-such. It's changed days. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104373 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:41:57 +0000 chdot 104373@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "They show in a microcosm how 'the people of Edinburgh' think about things. Those making decisions don't seem able to distinguish between 'shouty minority' and 'the people of Edinburgh'." Yes and no. ENews commenters are no more representative than CCEers. We're just better behaved and more rational... I'm sure there are people at the EN, and politicians, who are well aware that the commenters are not 'representative' - and so ignore or 'adopt'. I think there are (very broadly) two sorts of blog - Option and 'fact'/analysis. There are people who write what they think and theorise and may become 'followed' and influential. Increasingly often people are coming on TV and Radio described as "bloggers" - usually associated with convenvential political parties - though not usually toeing the party line... A lot of the cycling bloggers are going into great detail about existing road conditions or new proposals and (in general) pointing out inadequacies - and suggesting improvements. This helps people like Boris who is broadly supportive as it will at least give him questions to ask TfL. The Greener Leith blog has analysed the proposals for Leith Walk. The organisation behind the blog has produced responses and coordinated various organisations to support them. I suspect that ideas expressed on here have been incorporated. Certainly the CCE LW thread has been read by relevant council officials and some politicians. So CCE is a sort of 'multi-user blog' - which may or may not be influential... Instography on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104364 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:18:17 +0000 Instography 104364@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ If you want to influence someone there's no substitute for getting in a room with them over a protracted period and making your argument again and again and again, backing away, coming back, compromising, making some progress and giving way on something else. It's a messy business, all the time to cries of 'sell out' from people carping from the sidelines. The people in the room need to negotiate. The other side's job is to win them over, make them 'see sense'. Spokes is in the room, doing the negotiating. The people carping need to make sure they don't get too cosy. Sometimes, like on the QBC, they get it wrong. That's how it goes. Wilmington's Cow on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104363 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:08:28 +0000 Wilmington's Cow 104363@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ You can certainly be much more coherent and intelligent in blog posts on subjects - the difficulty is with that having visibility to those who matter. Ties in with what steveo says - the EEN is very visible, and the commenters are a subset of that visibility. The posts are short and snappy (and angry). They show in a microcosm how 'the people of Edinburgh' think about things. Those making decisions don't seem able to distinguish between 'shouty minority' and 'the people of Edinburgh'. A blog post sits there - generally read by like-minded people. Preaching to the converted essentially (I've often mused on this with citycycling and not done many pieces aimed at non-cyclists because I know they won't have clicked anyway to be there and read it). The Council aren't converted. Ergo the Council don't even hear that voice in order to take it on board. Which gets us back to why Spokes are good. Their voice IS heard (not quite as strong as some of the EEN commenters seem to think - it's been said quite a few times that Council transport policy is actually decided by Spokes, which once more ties in with a previous point, in that the people who believe that aren't reading anything that would counter that view because they're unlikely to read a blog about how awful the QBC is, and so simply have their prejudices confirmed by articles talking about how expensive it was which allows them to rail at Spokes forcing the Council to put in a corridor that inconveniences motorists). That's not to say stop blogging, far from it, but know what your audience is likely to be - and therefore you're not trying to change minds in a blog (or in a monthly online magazine), but rather fire up those readers to do more than just read, and to take to the comments pages, or twitter, or write to their councillors, or... join Spokes. Dave on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104362 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 11:07:58 +0000 Dave 104362@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I know that some people were unhappy when Spokes was supportive of the tram going along the Roseburn Corridor (subject to suitable cycle route at the side of course). Given the inestimable value of the NEPN I still find this hard to believe - we all know any path provided will be terrible, if useable at all, not to mention the immense damage of closing the route for construction for an indefinite (years?) period. The argument might be made that it was inevitable the trams would go down the old railbed, in which case why annoy the council by campaigning for cyclists in all of this, but that very much hearkens back to the AlternativeDfT comment above. steveo on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104360 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:54:59 +0000 steveo 104360@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Blogging strikes me as somewhat more constructive than EEN commenting. You know I'm not sure it is. If you subscribe to the EEN <strike>world</strike> parochial view then by commentating support you create a feedback loop that ensures, for example, the next time the Council tries something different like closing half of Princes St to traffic the EEN will take the side of it commentators and not give any other point of view a second paragraph. There by giving the impression to the council that the "public" are against the plans and they quietly go away. The council seems to still give more weight to the views of the EEN and its readers than any other group. Commenting against their mind set is usually shot down by a few muppets and thus any one who disagrees with their editorial stance is shot down and goes away. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104355 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:28:53 +0000 chdot 104355@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "only to be told that I'm the only one to have contacted them" If true that demonstrates a general 'British'(??) reluctance to complain. I know that some people were unhappy when Spokes was supportive of the tram going along the Roseburn Corridor (subject to suitable cycle route at the side of course). I don't know if people told Spokes or if any were members - or if any members decided not to renew. Spokes is made up of individuals doing (in some cases a lot of) work in their own time. Over the years it has achieved a lot - by the work of a few and by encouraging members to write/email on many issues. SRD on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104353 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:15:22 +0000 SRD 104353@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Blogging strikes me as somewhat more constructive than EEN commenting. I guess I would ask that those dropping Spokes membership actually take the time to write and tell them why they are doing so. I have occasionally taken issue with aspects of Spokes policy only to be told that I'm the only one to have contacted them, or that all the other feedback has been positive. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104351 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:11:19 +0000 chdot 104351@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "My own personal morality tells me that I shouldn't criticise if I'm not willing to take a turn at doing. But I suppose not everyone shares that" Probably not! Though that seems to discount the fact that criticism can be a positive action. Current (in the news) discussions about NHS whistleblowers surely show that fearing to speak out (criticise) - or being gagged - is not exactly healthy. I appreciate that there's a difference between a workplace 'this is wrong' and a general 'they shouldn't be doing that (but I'm not going to get involved and try and change things)'. One person's critic is another person's whinger. Instography on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104350 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:09:31 +0000 Instography 104350@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I've never tried to build a basic PC, still less a better one but the one I'm typing on is a heap of crap. More positively, people who coach are often not participants and/or no good at the thing they are coaching but their external perspective, the fact that they are not engaged, not fighting from the inside, allows them to take a broader, more dispassionate view. Dave's (via Boris') point about the bloggers is important. It's often far too easy for people compromised by a cosy relationship with the power they were meant to be fighting to turn round and say, 'and what are you doing?'. It's a moralistic argument and a variation on 'anything is better than nothing'. There's an important role for carping from the sidelines. SRD on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104348 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:01:33 +0000 SRD 104348@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "You don't have to buy the right to criticise - that's free to all." Interesting perspective. My own personal morality tells me that I shouldn't criticise if I'm not willing to take a turn at doing. But I suppose not everyone shares that. Dave on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104341 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:32:21 +0000 Dave 104341@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Does joining Spokes give one the ability to change what they do? I have to admit, I don't know anything about how it is steered. It's very easy to criticise and moan. Particularly now that people can mouth off at length on blogs, etc. Less easy to do something constructive, or take action to try and change things. That of course requires hard work and time spent on what, clearly, is often a thankless task. I'm not sure about this, given that Boris has announced the best part of a billion pounds for cycling and has gone on record as saying that the chap quoted above (amongst others) was responsible for changing the political agenda... through his writing? Although to be fair, perhaps when print journalism started out, people also felt that it was overly easy to just run off a front page here and there instead of taking action to try and change things? ;-) For my own part, what I write is seen by between 500 and 800 unique IPs each day. I think I would be doing well to reach as many people any other way (although I understand that a bunch of randoms reading an article and disagreeing with it might not be as effective as a single grumpy letter to a councillor). Instography on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104337 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 09:23:27 +0000 Instography 104337@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I can't really see what the argument is. Spokes exists by its own activity and by the willingness of its members and supporters to do things. If you like and support what they do, join them. If you want to change what they do, join them. If neither applies, don't join. If you think they are irredeemable, set up an alternative. You don't have to buy the right to criticise - that's free to all. A sensible organisation will listen and take note of its critics (just in case they have a point) but shouldn't feel obliged to adapt to them. SRD on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104325 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:59:23 +0000 SRD 104325@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Spokes is only as strong/influential as its members. If yu feel your contribution hasn't helped it do enough, then one option is to increase it, or as you suggest to drop it, or donate to another group. But a financial contribution is ony one way of doing something, and perhaps the least significant. We might also ask to what extent we have responded to spokes requests for us to write to policy makers, or the media. How often have we contacted spokes to offer material help? And how often have we tried to influence their policies, and - especially - offered to help them develop and implement those policies? crowriver on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104324 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:54:19 +0000 crowriver 104324@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ I disagree. What would be an achievement is the provision of good quality cycling facilities, not the publication of a newsletter. In fairness, providing infrastructure is the job of government and/or developers. Campaigns can only attempt to make the case for such infrastructure, and try and make it happen. Spokes does both. Charterhall on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104323 Thu, 14 Mar 2013 07:44:19 +0000 Charterhall 104323@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ So yes they are worth it - 30,000 copies of the newsletter is quite an achievement. I disagree. What would be an achievement is the provision of good quality cycling facilities, not the publication of a newsletter. Crammed but with good facts in every issue - the format may be small but it documents the achievements (and failures) in cycling policy for all to see. Yes there's lots of stuff about acronym-laden cycling policy but very little about what it as an organisation has achieved where it matters, on the ground. LaidBack on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104316 Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:03:58 +0000 LaidBack 104316@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ Spokes have had many interesting meetings with varied speakers. I'd recommend anyone to go along if they want to network or just put some names to faces. So yes they are worth it - 30,000 copies of the newsletter is quite an achievement. Crammed but with good facts in every issue - the format may be small but it documents the achievements (and failures) in cycling policy for all to see. Without the Spokes bike count we'd also have no data (Dave did one today but these things take time) Spokes also have DdF willing to take time to post on various forums - including this one. I'll now have to get my cheque book out! crowriver on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104315 Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:03:42 +0000 crowriver 104315@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ It's very easy to criticise and moan. Particularly now that people can mouth off at length on blogs, etc. Less easy to do something constructive, or take action to try and change things. That of course requires hard work and time spent on what, clearly, is often a thankless task. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104300 Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:49:49 +0000 chdot 104300@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "continues this debate in some style" Aye - " This so-called “Quality Bike Corridor” is not an example of the government supporting cycling or finally taking it seriously as a transport option. This is yet another example of the government paying lip-service to utility cycling, along with – and this is the saddest bit – yet another example of cycle campaigners lapping up the crumbs from the floor. " SRD on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-104297 Wed, 13 Mar 2013 21:30:46 +0000 SRD 104297@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ The most recent comment <a href="http://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/history-continues-to-repeat-itself/">here</a> continues this debate in some style. chdot on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-103801 Mon, 11 Mar 2013 15:54:02 +0000 chdot 103801@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ "Just wish they had a louder voice than the people shouting them down" Spokes tends to be quiet rather than shouty. Probably more effective in Edinburgh. <a href="http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9664">Meanwhile in US</a>. Arellcat on "Spokes - are they worth it ?" http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9653&page=2#post-103763 Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:07:11 +0000 Arellcat 103763@http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/ They should probably get CyclingScotland to pay for another four pages and use larger text! But keep the A5 format. Anything larger becomes difficult to shoehorn through saddle rails and brake cables.