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A pedestrian on Princes St

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  1. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    This just isn't OK.

    Irrespective of what happened in these incidents (given that we know nothing but what's in the news) there are plenty of places in Edinburgh where we can regularly see vehicles driven toward crossing pedestrians without significant slowing... in the assumption that the pedestrian knows they are (supposedly) in the wrong and will consequently get out the way. Commonly we see more aggressive variations of this too - vehicles driven at pedestrians with a blaring horn as if to say "you shouldn't be there and I'll hit you if you don't move".

    I saw one at Haymarket recently where the beeping was over a prolonged period - say 5 seconds (in these terms a long time) - with the vehicle getting closer at some speed - and the pedestrian only noticing at the very last minute. A life-saving leap out of the way followed. The driver showed no sign of slowing at any point at all - and fundamentally the pedestrian would have died (or been seriously injured) if they hadn't jumped.

    What kind of a place is this!?!?!? Is this the kind of place we want to live!?!?!?

    Many cities in the world outside the UK this doesn't happen. Nothing like this happens. In many cities you can walk up a road and people will just wait for you. I did it in Rome - busy and chaotic but people drive around pedestrians or just wait patiently. It was utterly amazing. In Amsterdam you might not even notice that someone is waiting for you. Even in difficult places people certainly won't drive as if to punish you or to educate you in the error of your ways by almost killing you...

    So forget other 'indicators' of success or failure on transport. There's one simple indicator which I think indicates a civilised city... pedestrians don't EVER get driven at in this way by people in vehicles which can kill them. EVEN IF they are doing something stupid, illegal, or inconsiderate. Perhaps people will get shouted at, or beeped at, but NOT driven at. Any city where this happens is fundamentally failing to make a civilised environment for living in.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. lorlane
    Member

    rbrtwtmn I completely agree with you. I have been on the receiving end of such "driven at" behaviour by an Edinburgh bin lorry - while the driver was laughing at my reaction. So, it's not even always "punishment" but entertainment.

    I was crossing a side street and the lorry wanted to turn left from the main road (Polwarth Gardens). He actually sped up and, yes, I got the fright of my life and jumped out of the way with very little room to spare. I will never forget the look on that driver's face. I phoned the council to complain and was assured they would look into it.

    Later that year an Edinburgh bin lorry drove over a pedestrian and killed him.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. PS
    Member

    This is entirely cultural - UK society has conditioned its people to think that pedestrians should not be in the road and should get out of the way of the motor vehicles.

    Some of that stems from our overprotective society, but it's perpetuated and extended by drivers mistaking pedestrian caution for deference, which boosts their sense of entitlement.

    In situations where peds take control, drivers have to respect the rule of the majority - I saw plenty of evidence of that during the festival - but it will take a lot more militant pedestrians to make a difference on a year-round basis.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "drivers mistaking pedestrian caution for deference, which boosts their sense of entitlement"

    Probably!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. Min
    Member

    In situations where peds take control, drivers have to respect the rule of the majority - I saw plenty of evidence of that during the festival - but it will take a lot more militant pedestrians to make a difference on a year-round basis.

    All that will do is ensure the building of more chicanes, closing of bus stops etc. At the Royal Infirmary, a bus stop has been closed due to "dangerous behaviour", ie people trying to reach it without having to take a detour to the zebra crossing.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. steveo
    Member

    Aye the real critial mass seen on match days in Gorgie or Murrayfield is what is needed. Shame folk are too (rightly) frightened to do this around Haymarket and Morrison St.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. PS
    Member

    All that will do is ensure the building of more chicanes, closing of bus stops etc. At the Royal Infirmary, a bus stop has been closed due to "dangerous behaviour", ie people trying to reach it without having to take a detour to the zebra crossing.

    Only if the authorities get involved, and take the wrong decision - removal of railings by the Scott Monument suggest that Edinburgh is (slowly) heading in the right direction on this. Drivers' behaviour can and will change when they are less confident that the road will always be clear.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Latest video showing number of very close calls on Princes Street / Frederick Street Junction.

    https://youtu.be/GFLHZvmdcw8


    The Roads and Transport service area held a ‘workshop’ on 6 October 2015 (Edinburgh Tram, Lothian Buses, Transport Policy, Traffic Signals) to discuss the balance between tram, vehicle and pedestrian priority on the tram route, the ifficulties faced and options to improve.

    It was noted that there are limits as to what can be achieved to improve pedestrian wait times with the network in its current form (as it has limited apacity related to road width etc) given the competing demands of general traffic, public transport, tram, cyclists and pedestrians, whilst offering Tram ultimate priority.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. neddie
    Member

    I was tooted at by an aggressive Lothian Buses van driver when crossing that junction on foot on Saturday.

    Of course, I was crossing on the red man because I had no children with me, and well..., who in their right mind is going to wait for the green man?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. Min
    Member

    Whoah, scary video. And here is me paying good money to go to the circus when I could just go to Frederick Street for as many death defying stunts as I can stand.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. stiltskin
    Member

    Well I'm going to buck the consensus here and say the vid shows just as many instances of poor pedestrian behaviour as it does poor driving. Though one or two of the Stagecoach ones are characteristically aggressive

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Min
    Member

    I see your point but when you have wait times of up to 4 minutes it is not too surprising you get bad pedestrian behaviour. I have had a 3 minute wait there before and that was ridiculous enough. Then the ped build-up is so huge that the precious few seconds you get to cross just aren't enough and folk end up in the middle of the road when the lights change.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. unhurt
    Member

    Yep, and my mother has complained that at busy times it gets so crowded on the pavements waiting you're almost edged into the road - then when crossing it's hard to negotiate round buggies and wheelchairs coming the other way because it's so crushed. (This is not an issue with the wheeled crossers but with the situation everyone is put into).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Pedestrians have to wait between 90 seconds and 4 mins 30, then the green man only comes on for 6 seconds. There's a maximum of 20 seconds between the green man coming on and the first bus moving afterwards.

    There's hardly any traffic coming out of Frederick Street in comparison but they receive at least 30 seconds of green.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. Snowy
    Member

    They should have a test day or week where the timings are reversed. Pedestrians to get 4 mins 30 on green, and traffic to get 6 seconds per phase.

    Council might then understand the pedestrian frustration caused by the current unsafe timings.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. SRD
    Moderator

    especially as there are almost always more people waiting on the pavement than inside the vehicles using the intersection.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    'poor pedestrian behaviour' What does that mean? I'll walk where I like, when I like. And when the council design a junction as poorly as that then I'll jolly well cross when I like. Unfortunately, some vulnerable groups may not be so able to cross in time and thus are absolutely marginalised. No shopping street in the world would treat pedestrians so poorly.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    Sorry. Get angry at the inability of our city to do the right thing by pedestrians and cyclists!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. Min
    Member

    "No shopping street in the world would treat pedestrians so poorly. "

    We visited Belfast this year and it was awesome to walk around. Lights changed almost as soon as you pressed the button and when they didn't the wait was cursory and nothing like the crazy wait times here. Also, I didn't see any of that obnoxious lane sprawling that so many Edinburgh drivers do - you know, one lane for my car and one for my sense of entitlement. I am not saying it was perfect, cyclists were almost entirely ignored but the walking was brilliant. No tram but plenty of buses going about. E'burgh could learn a lot

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. HankChief
    Member

    As luck would have it Adam McVey is about to be on Stv edinburgh so I have posed the question to him

    https://twitter.com/hank_chief/status/661597345704972288

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    It's approaching one year since we did the first video and I think i'll blog on this soon.

    I think the whole junction should be closed and traffic on princes street stopped from turning into Frederick Street. This would massively speed up buses and taxis on princes street, at the expense of forcing some buses and taxis to adjust their route. (It would also speed things up for pedestrians and help the shops, but i'm trying to think like a traffic planner and ignore this).

    Are there any difficulties that this would cause to buses or taxis that I may have overlooked? Can't they all just use south Charlotte Street instead?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    Agree, Utrecht. I can't see a good reason for buses cross to Princes St on Frederick St, they could just get on to the A8 by going across at Charlotte Sq.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    Apart from the fact that Lothian Buses tell the Council what the streets should be used for, not the other way round...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. Fountainbridge
    Member

    I've been exchanging correspondence with councillors and council staff for the past 6 months The majority of councillors just passed to Lesley Hinds for comment. Response from traffic team was that any changes would delay trams and buses. They have confirmed trams have absolute priority.

    They've also confirmed 3 of my reported "bugs" in the system, with 2 being fixed (lights being held when tram stuck at castle street crossing, 90 second pedestrian phase, Frederick St on green for 2 mins). the last one they are having issues debugging it.

    I get the impression most councillors couldn't care less on the issue.

    I'm considering trying to contacting the shop managers on Princes street and see if they could push the council.

    Any vehicle using Frederick Street could use South St David Street and South Charlote Street. South St David street already frequently blocked though.

    I've asked why couldn't 2 way traffic be considered at Frederick St junction and they're progressing this. This was the format used when the junction was initially reopened during tram works.

    I intend to record a third video of the junction on the 1st anniversary

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. Klaxon
    Member

    I noticed today that the crossing behaviour at S St Andrew St has been changed to match that at N St Andrew St, which is to say it now sits on green man apart from when a tram is coming.

    This was a major bugbear of mine early on - you got a green for 10 seconds every few minutes.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. stiltskin
    Member

    'poor pedestrian behaviour' What does that mean? I'll walk where I like, when I like.
    Feel free. But if you do that without looking before you step out, chances are you will end up getting run over.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. Arellcat
    Moderator

    traffic to get 6 seconds per phase.

    Like when turning right from Gilmore Place onto Leven Street!

    I've been doing the left turn from South St David Street onto Princes St a few times recently. The length of time you have to wait is second only to the time pedestrians have to wait to cross the road between Monsoon and Jenners.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. chdot
    Admin

    "They have confirmed trams have absolute priority."

    That's fine. It's analogous to level crossings closing to give trains priority.

    BUT

    (Apart from the fact that trams don't turn that corner) there aren't that many trams compared with the number of buses and taxis on Princes Street generally and turning in and of Frederick Street specifically.

    I assume this is all about altering the signals to prioritise trams that (for whatever reason) aren't running to time, so that light sequences have to be constantly altered.

    That doesn't really explain why pedestrian sequences are so sparse.

    I doubt if CEC would dare to argue that there are 'too many pedestrians on Princes Street'. Perhaps it's time to admit there are too many vehicles (particularly buses) and deal with that.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. dougal
    Member

    Obviously not too many pedestrians, merely the "wrong kind of pedestrians".

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    You're probably right.

    Edinburgh needs the sort that meekly wait for the lights to change (and then run).

    Time to start fining jaywalkers.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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