CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 17years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
The vibe I got was that it's all a done deal, and they've basically got work orders ready to go out / contracts to sign, and how annoying is it that you're asking us to consider doing something different.
If I have time tonight I need to reply and will start a wee blog thing following the conversation thread.
LionfishA two-way bike-lane on one side might be the most efficient use of space (it wouldn't even need to be the width of one lane!).
How would you reach and leave this lane if you are on the "wrong" side? How would you warn pedestrians that cyclists will be coming the "wrong" way on it?
OK, another suggestion which has been floated is to have a mass posting of postcards at one of the Chris Hoy Golden Postboxes. According to the map there's one on Hanover Street and one at Hunter Square, either of which could be combined with a flash ride up Leith Walk. That might be quite media friendly
The Council's Finance and Resources Committee approved the proposals set out in the report linked to previously at its meeting of 31 July. An amendment to the report was agreed, which states:
"The Director of Services for Communities to ensure that the design team assesses a full range of options to give increased priority for cyclists, including dedicated and mixed use lanes, to complement the proposals of the Active Travel Action Plan"
As you know, I'm fluent in most forms of officialese and this is pure Sir Humprhrey. I'm sure the design team will carry out an assessment - which is the only thing the amendment actually requires. As already discovered, there are no proposals in the ATAP for Leith Walk. I hope I'm wrong - but I agree with Dave that these proposals have too much momentum behind them for any significant changes to be made.
It also seems to show that, at least amongst some senior Council officers, who approve these reports, that there is no real enthusiasm for cycling.
but if they see that a large number of their bosses (the people who vote for them) ARE interested in provision for cycling ...?
BTW POP article in EEN http://www.scotsman.com/news/which-is-the-right-path-to-get-people-pedalling-1-2464913 regarding Leith Walk
"It also seems to show that, at least amongst some senior Council officers, who approve these reports, that there is no real enthusiasm for cycling. "
Do we need a POC (Pedal on Council) then?
sally - Public officials and civil servants work for their departments and ultimately politicians. They do not work for the public.
Politicians effectively have two "bosses".
1. Constituents: In my experience, politicians of all stripes try and do their best to assist constituents with their problems and concerns.
2. Political parties: The usual way to become a politician is by climbing the greasy pole within a political party. Getting selected to stand as a candidate requires unusual devotion to the party cause. Those selected (and elected) normally want to hold positions of power, which are dispensed by the party leadership. The remit of the leadership extends to party policy, most politicians have little input into policy making but are expected to toe the party line on all policy matters - with the implicit threat of deselection and/or demotion if they make things too difficult for the leadership.
If the iron grip of party machines on Scottish politics wasn't bad enough, when most politicians come to power they are presented with the true horror of the state of the budget, existing policies that are almost impossible to change and "events" - which they have almost no control over. Little wonder that much doesn't actually change (quickly at least).
Also, and it pains me to say it - while large numbers of people may be interested in better cycling provision, they only represent a small minority of voters.
"
Also, and it pains me to say it - while large numbers of people may be interested in better cycling provision, they only represent a small minority of voters.
"
As far as it goes that is true.
A problem with 'cycle campaigners' is that they think about 'cycling' and the people who do and 'all those who would cycle if they felt safe'.
There are more people who want safer streets to walk across, quieter neighbourhoods etc. - a 'more vibrant' Leith Walk even.
Somehow officials seldom seem to notice this fairly silent (perhaps) majority.
A bigger problem (I'm not discounting the truths Morningsider says about budgets and party machines) is that too many politicians are now not prepared to actually show much leadership.
They seem stuck with the mentality that in the UK/Scotland/Edinburgh cars/parking/speeds etc. are normal/inevitable/desirable - and what the voters want.
That's what makes the Leith Walk 'redevelopment' plans a bit depressing. There seems to some evidence that there's local support for something a bit more adventurous than 'more of the same' - with a smoother surface.
The message from Andrew Burns that I got last night was that Leith Walk is far from a done deal, there is still all to play for. Even if Jim Orr was spinning the line that it wasn't in the Active Travel Plan and therefore wasn't going to happen, but then Jim is a new boy (elected with a wafer thin majority at the last election), so he is still to find that what the vocal voters want actually matters.
There is a real and growing ground swell of opinion that the Active Travel Plan is not good enough and we can do better.
We have possibly a once in a generation chance to do something special with Leith Walk. Lets not miss out on it and really go for good quality infrastructure. Now is the time to start lobbying your elected representatives.
Sorry for the epic length. (The bold bits are quotes from Jim Orr's earier reply to me on why we aren't getting any significant improvement to Leith Walk.)
Dear Jim,Thanks for your response which raises several interesting points; I've also been away this last week so only just got the chance to reply.
I'm pleased that you agree in principal with the idea of a segregated cycle facility; to respond to your three challenges:
1. Dedicated cycle lanes are expensive and exceed the budget which we have available to repair these streets.What options for segregated cycle facilities have been costed by the council and how far do they exceed the overall budget? (I assume they have been costed, since you know they're too expensive?)
For instance, a basic option would be to not reinstate the central reservation after resurfacing (a saving) and extend the kerb line on the uphill side of the street by several meters. Designs are available 'off the shelf', and although I appreciate I'm no planner, it's hard to see how changing the proportion of road / pavement when the whole thing is being dug up anyway represents a crippling expense.
You'll note that the link provided in my original email (http://www.scribd.com/doc/101067461/Cycling-Edinburgh-Tram) even contains many design options which still allow for the hypothetical future construction of the tram.
Surely the council is capable of following the example of the growing number of cities which are becoming quite accustomed to building segregated infrastructure to tight budgets? Or is it just intransigence from officials that's blocking this - have they done any costing work at all?
2. The necessary consultation for dedicated cycle lanes would delay by many many months the urgent repair work to the roads and pavements which has already been announced and which is planned.
As the tram was cancelled in June 2011 it's hard to be too sympathetic to the plea that there isn't enough time to spend the money wisely, rather than blindly reinstate what was always acknowledged to be a dysfunctional road layout... although I appreciate you haven't been in office for that long, why the rush job?
More importantly, what was the point in the recent consultation if the truth is that we're committed to a mediocre outcome regardless of public opinion?
3. Such lanes were never part of the (widely praised) active travel action plan. Our priority is to implement this plan.
I find it surprising to hear that we can't make significant improvements to Leith Walk simply because it's not within scope of the ATAP.
Unless the ATAP has been updated to take into consideration the cancellation of the tram line and the substantial increase in cycle funding by the previous administration, I don't really see how anyone could argue that we should ignore this opportunity on that basis. Surely it's even easier to justify active travel improvements to Leith Walk when it's all being dug up anyway? Wouldn't you be pushing on an open door?
Regarding your comment on the bus lanes - last time I checked, they offer no protection at all on either Picardy Place or London Road roundabouts which are the main barrier to passage up and down Leith Walk. Personally I find it agreeable enough to ride in the bus lanes otherwise, but there's no way I'd recommend anyone in the area without extensive experience to consider travelling by bike. These could be addressed easily enough as part of a reconstruction (I can provide some suggestions if necessary!)
I think we can all agree it's unrealistic to expect people to take extensive detours down side-streets (or even more enormous detours to the Water of Leith, which just leads you to tangle with grim traffic conditions around Canonmills or Queen St / the Mound)
Is it going to take a mass 'Pedal on Leith Walk' to get a change in attitude? Could be fun in rush hour I suppose (for a certain value of 'fun') if large enough numbers were willing to turn out.
Given the perception of an open goal, this really is going to be taken as a litmus test of the administration's commitment to cycle provision and I have to say I'm not filled with confidence that things will turn out as we all might hope.
Thanks again for your response,
Kind regards, etc.
Dave, nice reply. Unfortunately I totally agree with your final paragraph.
I don't know where I came across the link from, but this is a very interesting blog post from London:
http://www.voleospeed.co.uk/2011/06/understanding-walking-and-cycling-deja.html
Is it worth those of us who live on the other side of the city and don't use Leith Walk (except in a bus) getting involved?
Is there still time to officially respond to the consultation? Playing catch up here having been away most of the last month. I live in the Leith Walk constituency and cross or use the street almost daily...
"Is there still time to officially respond to the consultation?"
There was a mini CEC consultation -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7633
and some development -
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=7945
There is still due to be 'proper' consultation, but already a lot of the money seems to have been committed to fixing what shouldn't have been broken in the first place - 'tram utility works' which weren't done properly (whether they should have been done at all is another matter....) BUT don't seem to be being re-done at contractor's expense!
So there is a degree of confusion about how much is already going to be done, how much money will be left and how much notice will be taken of any consultation.
There are also differing political opinions between individual councillors.
SO 'all to play for' - doesn't really matter where you live, this affects Edinburgh - and could have a big difference for how things are done elsewhere in future.
Dave - The reply from Jim Orr there reminds me very strongly of the reasons given by the wizards in the Terry Prachett novels about why women were not allowed in the university. They would go quiet and mutter something about the plumbing but Rincewind secretly suspected the real reason is because the women would be too good at it.
Why are politicians so frightened of something that might be a success?
"Shoppers turn their backs on ‘dirtiest street in Scotland’ "
(Leith Walk!)
"Economic development leader Tom Buchanan said: “We are investing in Leith Walk and recently announced a £5.5 million improvement fund that will help to restore it to its former glory."
Useful sound bite "former glory", but in this context somewhat questionable.
I expect there will be those who think the glory ended when Leith became part of Edinburgh. Perhaps they would be right.
I hadn't read this before (a bit stale, but highly relevant): http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/opinion/giving-new-leith-of-life-to-famous-thoroughfare-1-2441795
It's interesting to compare Lesley Hinds' statement from the above: "worked hard to identify extra funding so that we are not just patching up problems... provide the kind of improvements that will breathe new life into the area and create a fantastic boulevard... will base our plans around what [locals] want for the future of Leith Walk" with Jim Orr's admission that we're basically getting a return to the shabby pre-tram road layout which "has already been announced and which is planned."
It's morbidly depressing. To be fair to Jim Orr, he did agree that improvements for cycling (and thus walking) would be nice in principle, so perhaps he's just not able to admit that something else is tying his/their hands.
He's in our ward (and not with the biggest majority) so who knows, perhaps we can apply some cycling block votes in that direction at the next council election...
Oddly the only time I have met Jim Orr was last week on Leith Walk when he had cycled down to canvass the opinions of cyclist. I must admit I find his attitude to all this rather confusing, especially as he was elected by somewhat narrow majority.
To be fair to Jim Orr, he did agree that improvements for cycling (and thus walking) would be nice in principle
No doubt he supports a peaceful settlement of the conflict in Palestine, global nuclear disarmament, and high speed rail from Edinburgh to London.
Maybe we'll have to wait until he's got those pressing isues sorted before he gets around to arranging segregated cycle lanes on Leith Walk.
In fairness I'd rank peace in Palestine and nuclear disarmament as higher priority than a bike lane on Leith Walk if it's a case of only being able to have a couple of items on that list.
@WC (unfortunate abbreviation): Oh I'm sure we'd all like to see world peace in principle. Even Miss World thinks so. When, or how that can be achieved is rather more tricky though.
I am sure you are aware that I used these as examples of political priorities which (given the vested interests supporting the status quo) are so difficult to acheive that they are effectively meaningless posturing. Rather like a local politician saying that he would support a local facility in principle while in practice completely rubbishing the idea!
Jim Orr's attitude makes prefect sense to me, for two reasons:
1. As a newbie, he doesn't want to commit himself to anything that might come back and bite him.
2. All political will for even minor changes to the transport network has evaporated due to the tram fiasco. Far safer to put back what was there before and hope no-one remembers what happened rather than launch a new project on a street already blighted by years of work on an aborted project. From a political viewpoint, segregated cycle lanes will set off alarm bells as "it could all go wrong again!"
I'm not saying I support these views - but I can understand them.
"Oh I'm sure we'd all like to see world peace in principle. Even Miss World thinks so"
It hadn't crossed my mind till now that a Miss World wouldn't want world peace. 'Hi, my name's Stacey, and I'm a huge fan of random and indiscriminate state sponsored killing...'
"I am sure you are aware..."
Indeed.
"@WC (unfortunate abbreviation)"
You have no idea how funny an abbreviation CR is in Portuguese... ;)
"Jim Orr's attitude makes prefect sense to me"
Yes, but the problem is that what he says doesn't mesh neatly with what Lesley Hinds says.
He's new so finding his way with policy making and saying. It's complicated by the tram history - not least the differing views of the two parties that are now in coalition.
It's partly that 'we' (those on this forum with views that may appear to be at odds with what 'the people' want) want something different from what appears to be going to happen.
But, MORE IMPORTANT, it appears that CEC is set on an expensive course before it's done the consultation it's promising.
It's rather too easy to take the cynical view that 'all the money will get spent' without making much difference.
Politicians should be doing more to reassure people that this isn't the case and the consultation matters.
Perhaps Mr. Orr is just being more honest.
@Dave: I used your message from him, in my response to him, so I could also respond to the points he raised.
(just sent the email).
Dedicated cycle lanes are expensive
Not necessarily. How expensive is a narrow piece of extra kerb, a bit of paint and some signage? If a city in the poorest country in the EU can afford segregated cycle lanes, Edinburgh certainly can.
You have no idea how funny an abbreviation CR is in Portuguese... ;)
Thanks for the tip. I'll bear that in mind if I ever join a Brazilian web forum.
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On Leith Walk, we continue to meet with members of the local community to make sure that the £5.5 million improvement programme meets their expectations and we will work with them to reduce disruption as far as possible.
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http://andrewburns.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/august-2012-leaders-report.html
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Meanwhile, Spokes member Cllr Chas Booth has proposed a motion to Edinburgh Council’s 23 August meeting, calling for a Sir Chris Hoy Cycle Network, as a ‘golden legacy for Edinburgh.’
"
http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/2012/08/edinburgh-council-cycle-policy
The motion [item 10.5 on the agenda, pdf 60k] echoes several points in our comments above – particularly the need to start working on segregated onstreet provision, and the opportunity provided for this by the forthcoming Leith Walk reconstruction.
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subject to the successful conclusion of feasibility work and further public consultation, the first new section of the Sir Chris Hoy cycle network could be a segregated cycle route on Leith Walk
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ALSO 10.8
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Further resolves to convene a meeting before the end of 2012 and to invite representatives of Spokes, Pedal on Parliament, Cyclists’ Touring Club, Cycling Scotland, Sustrans, Greener Leith and any other relevant stakeholders (this group of stakeholders could be the existing Edinburgh Cycle Forum) to set a target for the number of miles of on-road segregated cycle route in the city which are connected to traffic-free paths and routes on less-trafficked roads, and develop an action plan for delivering the Sir Chris Hoy cycle network;
"
("Edinburgh Cycle Forum" - not to be confused with CCE!)
That's solid. (I was also confused by CCE ?= Edinburgh Cycle Forum)
Who do we need to lean on to get that adopted? All local councillors?
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