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Is dualling the A9 really that bad?

(583 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Wilmington's Cow
  • Latest reply from chdot

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  1. wee folding bike
    Member

    The A77 average speed cameras seem to work. There is a 50 mph section north of Monkton then other cameras further south. Everybody behaves in the 50 mph zone. Strangely enough it's close to where a Volvo 345 did a ton nearly 30 years ago. Couldn't do it on the flat, needed downhill.

    I can understand why there would still be fatalities on the A9 dual sections at the moment. When people see the sign announcing dual carriageway coming to an end they rush to get past the lorry, caravan or old Volvo which will hold them up if the don't get past it right now.

    There is some A road round Irvine which can be confusing as to whether it is dual carriageway or not. I've never had a collision as a result but I have been uncertain as to what kind of road I was on and kept left as a result.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  2. LivM
    Member

    Speak your desires, and they shall be manifest... Average speed cameras for the A9 by next summer

    Posted 10 years ago #

  3. chdot
    Admin

    "
    The first was installed on the A77 in Ayrshire between Bogend Toll and Ardwell Bay in 2005. It has been credited with improving safety.

    Transport Scotland said it had delivered a 46% reduction in fatal accidents and 35% cut in serious accidents.

    "

    Cost effective presumably!

    Careful, might undermine the case for complete dualling...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I don't actually doubt that Transport Scotland want to reduce the rather shocking death and serious accident rate on this road (it must be rather embarrasing to them, after all). Let's hope that the Average Camera system is effective and cost effective and isn't attacked by motoring lobby as a "stealth tax".

    Posted 10 years ago #

  5. Snowy
    Member

    Let's hope that the Average Camera system is effective and cost effective and isn't attacked by motoring lobby as a "stealth tax".

    They could immediately disarm that old chestnut by not actually fining people for speeding, but only applying points to their licences. That would send out a pretty clear message that this is about safety and not about raising money.

    I don't really think the threat of a fine at current levels actually stops people speeding (if it was £500 that might be different). However, I do think the threat of losing their licence makes them think twice.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  6. lionfish
    Member

    @Snowy "They could immediately disarm that old chestnut by not actually fining people for speeding, but only applying points to their licences." - good idea! Really would completely disintegrate the main argument I've heard against speed cameras.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  7. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Woman cut from car after four-vehicle crash on Edinburgh bypass
    http://news.stv.tv/east-central/234179-woman-cut-from-car-after-four-vehicle-crash-on-edinburgh-bypass/

    In case Keith Brown (or others) is still under any illustion that accidents can't and won't happen on dual carriageways.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  8. EddieD
    Member

    Really would completely disintegrate the main argument I've heard against speed cameras.

    It was proposed under Ali Darling's watch in DETR that points should be used instead of fines, but too many influential folk complained.

    I just typed "speeding fines points" into google to try for a reference - the first 3 pages of results were sites telling folk how to avoid the penalties, so I gave up...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  9. wee folding bike
    Member

    The 50 mph section on the A77 had seen many fatal crashes. The B730 crosses it and people got impatient. I used to live on the B730 but I was a few miles SW near the A70 junction.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  10. cb
    Member

    "The Rail Freight Group (RFG) has said upgrading the railway line between Perth and Inverness would help to ease travel on the A9 trunk road."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23470170

    Posted 10 years ago #

  11. neddie
    Member

    https://www.facebook.com/DualTheA9?hc_location=stream

    *Opinions on this page do not represent my own!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "
    I drive the A9 a lot and there are still points where I think am I on a single carriageway or a dual carriageway

    "

    Murdo Fraser MSP

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/414684/Safety-arrows-to-save-lives-on-killer-road

    Posted 10 years ago #

  13. crowriver
    Member

    Rail Freight Group calls for Perth-Inverness line upgrade

    The Rail Freight Group (RFG) has said upgrading the railway line between Perth and Inverness would help to ease travel on the A9 trunk road. The call follows the Scottish government's announcement that average speed cameras will be installed on the road between the two cities. The move is being seen as a way of easing travel on the route. Transport Scotland said ministers remained committed to encouraging a shift from road to rail.

    RFG, which represents freight companies and retail businesses, wants more goods moved by rail than road. It said supermarket chain Tesco's daily freight train to Inverness removed the need for 20 lorries. David Spaven, the group's spokesman in Scotland, said:

    "The introduction of speed cameras will do much to cut the accident toll on the A9, but it's important that the Scottish government goes further to reduce the volume of HGVs on the road. There is scope for rail to carry far more supermarket traffic as well as Highland exports such as whisky and timber. But the Perth-Inverness railway is still two-thirds single-track and there is limited capacity for additional freight and passenger traffic, so a substantial upgrade is essential."

    He said RFG was also concerned that dualling the A9 all the way between Perth and Inverness by 2025 would lead to large volumes of freight switch from rail to the road.

    Continues at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23470170

    Posted 10 years ago #

  14. LaidBack
    Member

    i thought that was interesting.
    Freight lobby more powerful than passengers? Well it made the news.
    Road freight pressure was the one that helped persuade SG that spending £1.5 billion on another Forth Crossing was worth doing.
    SG have responded with: "the Scottish strategic rail freight investment fund, which will provide up to £30m to improve rail infrastructure, and continued funding of the freight facilities grant and mode shift revenue support schemes."

    So around a fiftieth - have I got my maths right? That would hardly build a mile of road these days (!)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  15. wee folding bike
    Member

    Perhaps if Murdo Fraser and his friends hadn't voted for the trams there would be more money for other stuff, not just the A9.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. crowriver
    Member

    @wfb, sometimes it's better to let the past go. Don't hear you complaining about the M74 extension, which was ridiculously late and over budget too. Somehow that was spun into 'on time, on budget', perhaps because Scottish ministers were accountable for the spending?

    How much money is left in the transport pot? SNP somehow managed to find £2 billion for the Forth Resilience Crossing; best part of a billion for the Alex Salmond Constituency Shortcut (sorry, Western Peripheral Route); and now £3 billion for the A9. Meanwhile, EGIP is cut to be 'more cost effective' and Borders railway delayed by failed experimental funding models.

    Let's face it, the SNP have no vision for rail, and have shown no leadership. All the rail projects under their watch were inherited from the previous administration. Their transport vision is firmly planted behind the wheel of a four wheeled conveyance with an internal combustion engine.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. RJ
    Member

    TS do seem to be fairly rubbish, in many ways.

    However, I think there's a case for (further) dualling the A9. There's also a case for (further) twin-tracking the railway. I suspect a conventional cost-benefit analysis might show the road option offering "better value for money".

    That would be a short-term view, given the relative changes over the last 35 years. Road journey times to and within the highlands have been slashed over this period. I imagine rail use has fallen. My heart says it would be good to restore some balance.

    There's a wider Q of balance and priorities in current transport policy. My fear is that dualling the A9 will be used as an excuse to say that the coffers are empty for other projects - which is not the same as saying it's a bad idea in itself.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Analysis: Stepping up a gear on the long, tortuous road towards a safer A9

    AVERAGE-speed cameras may be a no-brainer in cutting speeding, but the A9 has a more complicated safety problem. That may be why, years after their proven success elsewhere, the technology is only now being deployed on the main route linking the Central Belt and the Highlands.

    With complete dualling of the Perth-Inverness section at least 12 years away, and yet another multiple-death crash in recent weeks, ministers will have been under increased pressure to take tangible action.

    "
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/a9-to-get-136-miles-of-speed-cameras-1-3016746

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    I imagine rail use has fallen.

    According to Wiki, for the Perth-Inverness route: "Overall usage on the line comparing April 2003 to April 2010 has increased 154%." That's passengers. Dunno about freight.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. wee folding bike
    Member

    You know there could be a reason why I don't complain about the M74.

    I'm not sure what it has to do with Murdo forgetting that he voted for the trams when the money could have been spent elsewhere.

    For that matter a previous administration sent £1 billion back to Westminster because they didn't have anything to spend it on. I think Iain Grey was transport minister at the time.

    I don't think a railway to Glasgow airport made much sense but I would like them to use the line which used to go to St Enoch and link trains north and south of the Clyde. Bits of it are already there.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. chdot
    Admin

    Random -

    http://free.uk.scotland.transport-railways.narkive.com/umGmKMHW/crossrail

    http://urbanglasgow.co.uk/archive/saint-enoch-station__o_t__t_399.html

    http://www.futureglasgow.co.uk/Index_Infrastructure.html

    http://www.hiddenglasgow.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=146&start=105

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. wee folding bike
    Member

    As well as the M74 I also don't complain about the Airdrie - Bathgate line. I'm not convinced it gets much use. The trains in the middle section seem fairly empty but it's very handy for me.

    I had to get a bike in BikeTrax two weeks ago. In the old days I would probably have used a car rather than Airdrie - Queen St - Haymarket. Now I use the train unless I have the memsahib with me or if I have to be in Edinburgh early on a Sunday.

    The Sustrans route hasn't been reinstated but I never used it except when exploring canal reservoirs so again I'm not complaining.

    chdot, yes in some ways Queen St seems like a poor choice of the options. I was just pointing that out to the Memsahib this afternoon as she made me go to the Buchanan Galleries shopping place. For some reason she has never used a normal Queen St train, just low level. You get a view of the Queen St tracks from the car park access. The tracks on Queen St all have to run into the tunnel. As well as limiting how many trains go in/out at a time it means the train length is limited. You can't extend the platforms at the north because of the tunnel. You can't extend at the south because of George Sq. I read somewhere that Class 37 locos were almost into the tunnel while waiting at the platform.

    A wee while earlier I had pointed out the remaining bit of wall from Buchanan St station… what an exciting time she must have had.

    I guess the low level train lines might have given Queen St am edge when the doctor made his plan.

    Buchanan St had a tunnel too, you can still see the abutment on the south side of the west bound M8 near Kyle St It was demolished in '67 so I never saw it. I remember St Enoch as a car park before and after it had the roof taken off.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. i
    Member

    Interesting thoughts and comments from magnatom.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. slowcoach
    Member

    The Scottish Crime and Justice Survey 2010-11 found that 76% of people asked agreed with the use of speed cameras on Scotland's roads, while only 17% disagreed. Other surveys too have found far more support for cameras than the anti-camera lobby try to pretend there is. The SCJS also found that 59% agreed that cameras were "an easy way of making money out of motorists". So even amongst those that think cameras are making money from speeders, most people agree that cameras should be used. So it seems most agree that bad-drivers should pay for their bad behaviour, despite the claims from the bad-driving lobby.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. crowriver
    Member

    And yet:

    Borders speed camera fire bid investigated

    A68 speed camera saw attacks continue

    Appeal for witnesses to A68 speed camera vandalism

    Scottish Borders A68 speed cameras attacked with saw

    Fire vandals target Scottish Borders speed cameras

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. fimm
    Member

    re Airdrie - Bathgate: the car park at Livingston North gets absolutely rammed with people parking on the access road and annoying the residents; that's all people commuting by train into Edinburgh. I commute the other way and it isn't so busy, but busy enough (especially if I go to PY and get a later train).

    It is certainly possible to take the Sustrans route from Livingston to Airdrie, because I did it the other week, and was pretty impressed with it too.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. wee folding bike
    Member

    Last time I looked you had to use the A89 round Plains some where. I think Sustrans said to use the footpath.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. crowriver
    Member

    Lorry drivers plan ‘roadblock’ protest on A9

    A rolling roadblock protest has been planned on the A9 by lorry drivers over the decision to introduce average speed cameras.

    Transport minister Keith Brown last week announced that drivers are to have their speed tracked on more than 100 miles of Scotland’s most notorious road in a bid to improve safety.

    The organiser of the protest Conor McKenna says he expects at least 80 lorries to join the demonstration that could see major delays to traffic on the Perth-to-Inverness section of the road.

    The protestors plan to drive 40mph to highlight the impact of the new camera scheme. Mr McKenna said: “We could work with average speed cameras if the speed limit is raised to 50mph. The average speed cameras are fine on the A77, but that is mostly dual carriageway where lorries can travel at 50mph. The A9 is 80 per cent to 90 per cent two-lane road.”

    “We want something that has a big impact,” said McKenna, of Inverness. “It needs to be dramatic to show the government the problems this will cause.”

    “These proposals are simply putting a plaster on a bleeding wound and the only way the A9 Safety Group will listen is if something happens,” Mr McKenna continued. “We were not consulted on this matter.

    “Costs will go up and it could be a disaster for smaller haulage companies. The A9 Safety Group needs the finger pointing at them as they are just not thinking.”

    Pressure has intensified on Scottish ministers to take action to make the road safer after the latest fatal crash, on 9 July, in which three people were killed on a single-carriageway section near Newtonmore.

    The scheme involves cameras being sited every four miles over a 136-mile stretch at a cost £2.5 million. It is expected to be operating by next summer to enforce the 60mph single carriageway and 70mph dual carriageway limits on the main route to and from the Highlands.

    (That's the whole article, you don't need to click the link below unless you wish to marvel at the frothing reactionary comments)

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/lorry-drivers-plan-roadblock-protest-on-a9-1-3029149

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. crowriver
    Member

    Personally, I think lorry drivers sticking to the speed limit is a very good idea. Shouldn't they be doing that all the time? How is it a 'protest' exactly?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "Shouldn't they be doing that all the time?"

    Quite.

    Most odd.

    Seem to want to highlight the fact that some drivers persistently break the law(?)

    Posted 10 years ago #

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