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"DIY store to be demolished for student flats" (and other developments)

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  1. crowriver
    Member

    Was walking home from Waverley last night along Hillside Crescent, and noticed there is demolition in progress at No.8, a former office building. Noted they seem to be keeping the concrete frame. Intrigued, I resolved to check the planning portal today, and.....student accommodation! Refs: 13/02503/FUL; 13/02503/VARY ; 14/03347/FUL

    There's always been a proportion of students renting in the Hillside area. I'm pleased to see the derelict building being used for something, and students will hopefully be responsible tenants, but I wonder if a larger number of 'transient' residents will affect that crescent to the detriment of the local area?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/education/students-flats-plan-gets-doctor-s-surgery-1-3685478

    "Students flats plan gets doctor’s surgery"

    Fringe performers will be able to rent out student flats at discount rates if controversial housing plans get the green light.

    Student accommodation company Unite wants to build the 579-bed development on St Leonard’s Street where DIY store Homebase is now based.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/appeal-as-flats-plan-is-rejected-1-3688175

    Not all rubber stamps today down at City Chambers. Of course, the developer is appealing. And can continue to do so, forever, until they grind the council down and win.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

    "

    planning bosses ­citing fears it would push Southside’s student population above 61 per cent.

    "

    That does seem a bit 'unbalanced'.

    The concern isn't just that it's 'students', it's also to do with the lower proportion of 'permanent' residents and the difference that makes to 'local communities'.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. Fountainbridge
    Member

    Fountainbridge / Dalry / Gorgie has 11 existing student accommodation places, 2 under construction and 5 at some stage of planning.

    Question I have is Napier demolished half of it's Craiglockhart site which is still wasteland - why not build accommodation there?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @Fountainbridge simples, because that - in managementspeak terms - wouldn't "unlock value" in the site by turning it into overpriced des resses.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. Kim
    Member

    As someone who lives in the Southside I would rather have a DIY store than more student flats. As an undergraduate I lived in the Southside and tried to be a good citizen, but there are, sadly, a large number of students now who don't want to be a part of the community. This is something the Students Union should take on board and think about how to socialising some of its members.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. SRD
    Moderator

    I doubt they are any more or less socialized, but there are a lot more of them than there used to be.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The objection was that adding 500 rooms would put the student population up to over 60 per cent in two small “data zones” in a patchwork quilt of population analysis, against a council policy which stipulates only 30 per cent of the population in any given area should be students.

    Such high concentrations, the meeting heard without any shred of ­evidence, would be “detrimental to community cohesion”. From where I sat the planning officer sounded more like one of the campaigners.

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/opinion/john-mclellan-flats-rejection-just-nimbyism-1-3689390

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Assume John Mclellan lives in a cohesive neighbourhood with 61% student population?

    He's entriely wrong to use the NIMBY tag for people onjecting, in reality it is NMIMBYism (no more in my back yardism).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. gembo
    Member

    In a student area would you not expect more than 30 per cent of rooms to be occupied by students?

    When I were a nipper at edinburgh uni I was in a very small per cent age of the student population who went to places in Gorgie and easter road. Gorgie da.ry all student flats now. No better or worse than before.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "Gorgie da.ry all student flats now"

    All? More than 60%??

    Where do non students live?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. gembo
    Member

    The Bronx is up the battery down the people live in a hole in the ground

    Ex brewery site all new student flats is of course what I should have said.

    Glasgow uni shipped the students to Maryhill which meant a run into the building chased by locals. Heriot watt houses foreign students in. Wester Hailes and Strathclyde does same in chateau au lait.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. chdot
    Admin

    "Ex brewery site all new student flats"

    Presume you mean bit next to canal?

    Think other side of Dundee Street is more mixed.

    Anyway that's Fountainbridge not G-D.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Morningsider
    Member

    These developments don't really have anything to do with students. They are simply investment vehicles that produce fantastic returns. They are cheap to build and have as close to a guaranteed income stream as you could want. As the planning system does not categorise them as housing they avoid all the usual planning restrictions on new house building - including a requirement to provide 25% of the units as affordable housing.

    No surprise to see John Mclellan on the side of the international money men (again) and against people fighting to protect the amenity of their area. I should say that I don't think students are unusually anti-social. It's just that having a high concentration of any particular section of society in one small area is bound to have implications for the minority of other residents - most probably negative ones.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. gembo
    Member

    Marchmont pleasant and rammed with students? New town also. I did stay in one of the terrible first block of student flats at 9 sciennes. So bad it did not even have a road or avenue after its name. Walls wafer thin. Rooms small. I moved out to a real flat after a term.

    Universities are a plus for an area, they come with students who have plusses and minuses. Property developers cutting corners and acting like spivs, bad for an area.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Marchmont pleasant and rammed with students?

    There's a difference here as it's an area where students are interspersed in buildings with all others; the young, the old, those with children and those without. These are proper houses under HMO licencing and with a single named agent or landlord you can deal with if the residents turn out to be antisocial. By building big blocks with hundreds of student-only rooms in them, you concentrate any potential for trouble to a point where it's probably inevitable (and for neighbours makes it far more difficult to identify and deal with the perpetrators of any unsavouriness)

    And as Morningsider points out, these student prisons are not actually housing at all! And you can be sure the proprietors are falling over themselves to build them because they are much cheaper than building houses to housing regulation standards and you have a near guaranteed supply of tenants who you can set the rate for to the level of maximum profitability. If they don't like it, they will probably end up in another prison operated by a slightly different sounding organisation selling similar small rooms at the same rates.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    @ Kaps yes having stayed in one for a term I sm agreeing. The issue is not students, nor concentrations of students either interspersed or in clump where neighbours are other students. The problem is Spiv developers

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/education/student-flat-hunt-like-hunger-games-1-3693622

    Apparently there's now actual killing involved in killing to get a flat, if the chipwrapper's headline is to be believed.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. PS
    Member

    I should say that I don't think students are unusually anti-social.

    From my experience (both as a student in a Marchmont tenement and, more recently, as a non-student with student neighbours in a non-Marchmont tenement) I'd say they are.

    Probably not consciously (I'd like to think I didn't behave like a dick at uni, at least), but they are more likely to keep significantly different hours to their neighbours, talking and walking loudly up and down the stairwells at 3 in the morning when their neighbours are trying to sleep.

    It's just a function of having a more flexible diary and the youthful ability to booze and be sociable on a more frequent basis.

    I suppose it's also part of learning how to behave away from the family home - the considerate student may need to be told to keep-the-noise-down-some-of-us-are-trying-to-sleep once or twice by their neighbours, but then will learn to amend their behaviour so as not to upset others.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. gembo
    Member

    OOOh PS you have restored a deeply suppressed memory. When we lived in thistle St we had students move in above us, bit noisy. One night they had a party and they were very surprised to see me at the party in my dressing gown etc carrying a bucket of hot soapy water and a mop. I explained their guest had urinated down the common stairwell and now they were going to clean it up. Never had any bother off them after that. I was channelling the spirit of Harry Cross.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    swamped – we can’t get moving for students. We can’t sleep at night [with] the noise and parties

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/education/residents-dread-as-student-flats-bid-approved-1-3724785

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Aren't there enough places to put students??

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. kaputnik
    Moderator

    What used to be "Elliot House" (the rather out-of-place 1967 concrete office block on Hillside Crescent) has been stripped back to the frame and re-clad for conversion to "luxury" student apartements. If you dig really deep into the planning application you can find it is intended for 138 persons (subsequently altered upwards by amending the planning permission to include 3 roof-top studios). The student accommodation replaced an existing granted (probably expired) proposal from 2006 to convert the office in the same manner into 34 private dwellings, 7 of which were to be affordable.

    There's a proposal pending consideration to demolish the old Stanley Place church (the one at Abbeyhill that rather spectacularly and mysteriously burnt itself down a few years back while being used as a scaffolding store), which was fairly notable architecturally for being a brick-built Victorian church in Edinburgh. That's for 93 student flats.

    There's 450 student flats being built at Abbeyhill / Abbeymount on the old Chatham garage (or in old money on the site of the Regent Cinema, or in even older money the Palace Brewery).

    There's 170 students at the "Gateway Apartments" (Gateway Studios in old money variously the, Gateway, Atmospheric, Pringle's, Millicent Ward's, Festival and Broadway cinemas).

    A little down Leith Walk at Haddington Place (where the Shrubhill House stood) they are building a mixed-use development including 226 student bedrooms.

    The planners recently threw-out plans for a 240-bed student residence at the end of Bothwell Street (I'd hazard a guess they'll be back shortly with amended proposals).

    So in a very short period of time, 12-18 months at the most, that's potentially over 1,200 students put in an area not 700m across from end to end, where previously there's been no single concentration of students, rather they've been sprinkled amongst the existing flats and houses. It seems that only the larges (the Abbeyhill one) of these qualifies to need a "student management plan"; developers don't need to provide this under a certain size. So you can still fit 1,200 students in an area but you don't need to make specific provisions for their impact if they are spread amongst a number of smaller developments.

    I'm not sure what I make of it all, clearly you can fit a lot more students in the same space than non-studenty peoples. And clearly a number of developers and management companies are going to be making themselves very rich given the sorts of above-rental market fees they are charging.

    I've also discovered it takes quite a long time to trawl through all the planning permissions for each development to get a headcount for each. I very much doubt most people take their lunch hour to do this and I'd imagine most people are in the dark about such things until it begins to bother them in some way or another.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    @kappers, yes I've been concerned about all these simultaneous developments for some time (see above in thread). It will change the character of the area to some extent: essentially we'll have a lot more transient residents. Potentially more late night noise/antisocial behaviour, though not convinced that will be a major issue. Local shops, pubs and businesses may see an uptick in trade. Local parks will be busier in the summer of 2016 with impromptu barbecues, etc.

    We *might* even see more cyclists taking to the roads and paths... :-)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. chdot
    Admin

    "There's 170 students at the "Gateway Apartments" (Gateway Studios in old money variously the, Gateway, Atmospheric, Pringle's, Millicent Ward's, Festival and Broadway cinemas)."

    Is there any work actually going on here?

    It's last use was as the drama part of QMU.

    It curiously (and contoversially) stopped being that after the building was declared 'unsafe' - quite a few years ago.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Is there any work actually going on here?

    Not any more. It was finished last year!

    It will change the character of the area to some extent: essentially we'll have a lot more transient residents. Potentially more late night noise/antisocial behaviour, though not convinced that will be a major issue. Local shops, pubs and businesses may see an uptick in trade. Local parks will be busier in the summer of 2016 with impromptu barbecues, etc.

    Indeed there is bound to be benefits in some form if there are more residents served by existing shops and pubs, and Leith Walk has for many years had a rather transient population in many of the tenements, so it may be that spreading the developments wider across an area in smaller blocks might be a good/better way to do it. And of course very few car parking spaces go into any of these developments (usually a couple of token spaces for disability compliance), therefore potentially many new cyclists?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chrisfl
    Member

    Council actually have a planning consultation out on this at : http://planningedinburgh.com/2015/03/16/your-views-on-student-housing-in-edinburgh/

    Well worth a read and comment. Some of the stats are quite interesting, Total student numbers have increased by 26% betweeen 2001/2 and 2013/14 from 34 615 to 43 740. So nearly 10 000 more students.

    Apparently 13 049 beds are currently being supplied in purpose built accomodation and 6183 are proposed/have planning permission/under construction.

    There are also some interesting maps showing Student concentrations.

    Lots of other interesting stuff.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Very interesting, well worth a read, thanks for the link. Page 8 suggests there hasn't been much (by which I mean anything) by way of a planning refusal since 2010 (I guess Bothwell Street missed the cutoff for publication).

    Posted 9 years ago #

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