still, as long as the dazzled-by-sun excuse still holds up in law, everything will be fine...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Debate!
Self-driving cars 'must have driver', regulators insist
(120 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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I assume that Tesla has an idea of the extent to which the driver was actually paying attention to what was happening before the crash due to the ability to detect if the steering wheel is being held, if nothing else, and presumably there is video from the forward facing camera, but it does seem difficult to imagine that a vehicle of the size described (an articulated 18 wheel style truck) could be hard to spot regardless of light.
While this is sad news, I suspect that the real social test of self-driving vehicles will be the first time one causes the death of someone other than an occupant.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Tesla driver killed while using autopilot was watching Harry Potter, witness says
Driver in first known fatal self-driving car crash was also driving so fast that ‘he went so fast through my trailer I didn’t see him’, the truck driver involved saidPosted 7 years ago # -
From what I heard on Radio 4 this morning, the average miles/fatality on human-driven cars is 1/60,000,000, whereas Tesla cars have done 130,000,000 before this death.
Sample size defeats any sensible attempts to draw firm conclusions, but the news is not very bad.
I personally am of the opinion that I will live to be asked 'you let people drive?!?' in the same tones of horror that old Edwardians would be asked if urchins were expected to dash into cotton looms and retrieve debris before the mechanism crashed back and crushed them.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Uber 'to introduce self-driving cars within weeks'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-37117831
Johnny Cab.
[+] Embed the video | Video Download Get the Flash Video Posted 7 years ago # -
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Many of us have experienced problems with GPS systems, and we have seen the trouble with autopilot. Put the two ideas together and you get the self-driving car. Chris Urmson, who runs Google’s self-driving car programme, hopes that the cars will soon be so widely available that his sons will never need to have a driving licence. There is a revealing implication in the target: that unlike a plane’s autopilot, a self-driving car will never need to cede control to a human being.
"
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/11/crash-how-computers-are-setting-us-up-disaster
Posted 7 years ago # -
Really interesting article about automation, but unfortunately then concludes with perpetuating the shared space paradox.
Arguably removing external guidance makes people think for themselves, but this breaks down into "might makes right" where there is a disparity in volume and/or kinetic energy between those being asked to share.
Robert
Posted 7 years ago # -
Self-Driving Mercedes Will Be Programmed To Sacrifice Pedestrians To Save The Driver
Mercedes gets around the moral issues of self-driving cars by deciding that—of course—drivers are more important than anyone else.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Given the rarity of self driving Merc crashing compared to human driven ones there's some sense to this. Particularly if it encourages human driven mercs off the road.
If it alters it's course towards bystanders in order to increase the chance of it's driver surviving that's another matter.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Are people in autonomous Mercedes ever at any actual risk from hitting pedestrians? Seriously: metal boxes, roll cages, airbags, seatbelts - and they worry about saving the driver from the outside world?
Talk about externalising risk! I'm alright Jack...
Posted 7 years ago # -
Mercedes [engineer] gets around the moral issues of self-driving cars by deciding that—of course—drivers are more important than anyone else.
So what? Regulators regularly overrule engineers.
Car design has more in common with European safety regulation than any atheistic school. Bonnets are long and low to scoop up pedestrians rather than put them under the wheels, bull bars have mercifully been removed as has those metal Jaguar bonnet ornaments. The list is long and arduous.
Besides all that its a nonsense argument, we don't see this argument coming up for manual driven cars. Flip it around pretend that Robot cars are the norm, we'd never even consider giving people access to the steering wheel.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Talk about externalising risk! I'm alright Jack...
I think the seriously hypothetical scenario is self driving car mysteriously losing control and spinning towards a self driving bus. Both vehicles have had a quick chat and the only resolution is to point the merc in to crowd of children. That might happen once but the politicians would make sure next time the driver goes over a cliff.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Elon Musk says that all newly built Teslas, including the 'affordable' Model 3 from late next year, now have fully autonomous hardware capability: 12 cameras with 360 degree visibility, eight ultrasonic sensors and a forward facing radar (but no lidar), and a powerful onboard computer to process the data. They are merely waiting for the software to catch up (although they do have a demonstration video), which he expects it will do towards the end of next year. Legislation allowing fully autonomous driving may well be another matter!
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware
Posted 7 years ago # -
To prevent the fatality where a Tesla car did not see a white truck trailer against a white sky, Tesla need to upgrade their cameras (i.e hardware) to be high-dynamic-range capable.
I would also argue that a LIDAR is essential for a safe fully-autonomous vehicle. Fortunately, the cost of the LIDAR hardware is set to plummet (currently around $10,000 for the spinning wheel types).
Posted 7 years ago # -
@edd1e_h I would assume that HDR must be included in the new camera specification, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that. I'm bemused that Elon feels that Tesla can do without lidar and that the new hardware specification is as good as it needs to be for fully autonomous driving despite the fact that they are yet to fully develop and test the corresponding software, but I shall continue to follow developments with interest as Model 3 approaches.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Uber refused to back down on Friday, claiming its rejection of government authority was “an important issue of principle”.
Can't see any possible downside to arbitrary refusal to recognise state authority.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Imperfect self-driving vehicles could still be significantly safer than traditional cars, said Jeffrey Tumlin, director of Oakland’s department of transportation.
But he also noted that “bike lanes present a unique challenge for driverless technology”, because cyclists are agile and can travel at high speeds. “It can be more difficult to predict their behavior,” he said, explaining that engineers are already struggling to navigate vehicle responses to pedestrians, which tend to be simpler.
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Posted 7 years ago # -
The car has a camera and the picture will be sent to the police department, and the police department will come and arrest you for annoying an autonomous vehicle.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Of course they will. Meanwhile drivered cars will still be able to harass, endanger and even mow down cyclists either on camera or not and nothing will happen to the driver. Move along now.
Posted 6 years ago # -
the author of the article seems to be suggesting that AI drivers are a bad thing because they don't just drive into any obstacle in their way. Do they really think that fear is the only thing which keeps pedestrians on the pavement?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Horizon special on driverless cars tonight on Beeb Twa.
Loads of petrol heads blabbing on it so far. Economist guy: "If you can't drive, you're not a proper adult."
Sigh.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I believe, on a slightly different lane, that Budweiser beer in the USA have already completed a ( very small ) number of deliveries in an artic , or big rig as they call them ! I drive an artic every day, our fleet has sat nav linked cruise control, it changes gear( auto ) up or down , BEFORE, it gets to a hill,reduces throttle input as you crest a hill, we have auto brakes, radar picks up an obstacle within a certain distance, an alarm sounds and the dash lights up, if the driver takes no action, steer , brake or strangely, accelerates then the vehicle will emergency stop !!! Lane deviation system also reads the lane markings and can detect if you cross the lines without steering input, it alarms via speakers in the doors, so you know which side you are running into ! We are also fitted with side cameras, both off side and near side, which also have proximity sensors all along the unit which alarm audibly when something is within a certain distance , screen on dash comes on with alarms. All I do is steer !! Nearly !!
ScottPosted 6 years ago # -
"also have proximity sensors all along the unit which alarm audibly when something is within a certain distance"
How does that work with bikes at the side?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Perfectly, that's what they are aimed at, the cameras are mounted under the mirrors on the doors, the sensors are approx 2 1/2 feet from the ground, they work very well. We did have fresnel lenses as well but seem to be in speced on newer kit. I'll see if I can acquire videos if your that keen ? Employee very carefull about putting stuff in the public domain !
Posted 6 years ago # -
Interesting...
If only it was a legal requirement for any vehicle with 'blindspots'.
(You'll have noticed the #OpClosePass thread http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=17633&page=5#post-249811 )
"Employee very carefull about putting stuff in the public domain"
Understandable, but you'd think employer would be keen to tell people(?)
Posted 6 years ago # -
Indeed telling people , but under their control !!! I'll get a couple of pics and vids I should be able to clear it no problem but big business don't always work with common sense !
Posted 6 years ago # -
Thanks.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"Lane deviation system also reads the lane markings and can detect if you cross the lines without steering input"
Sounds like a good system. I was driving a rental car last week which only stopped the beep if the indicator was used (not necessarily a bad thing).
the only trouble was the road layouts which were something akin to GSR (Gogar Station Road). This mean you were often crossing into or out of bike lanes and the lane assist beeped every single time.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Posted 6 years ago #
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