CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh

LEZs

(293 posts)

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  1. gembo
    Member

    @neddie, collective avoidance of guilt?

    Anyway, what is achievable? Electric delivery vehicles from depots outside the bypass? On the one hand this also avoids the responsibility we all share and on the other Eddie Stobart or Norbert Dentrassgle or any other deliverers will easily employ lobbyists. Though biggest number of lorries I see on my commute if forced onto road (WoL path has been dry of late) - beer lorries, sainsbury lorries etc, all just parking illegally as why wouldn't they and the traffic accepts the hold up?

    Congestion charge and single occupant vehicle detection - technology available but no political will.

    So might just be Lothian buses lower emission fleet?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    I nailed a thesis to the doors of St Giles pre-internet; No motorised vehicles inside a ring round Meadows/Ferry Road and aw that except for buses. Including mechanical diggers.

    You'd have lots of jobs for porters and spade-wielders and a lovely UNESCO world heritage site with kids playing in the streets and blue skies and birds singing. Taxation would be a thing of beauty and death be vanquished.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    @IWRATS, what would be the eastern and western boundaries of this motorised exclusion zone?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @Crowriver

    Dunno man like Haymarket and Meadowbank maybe?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    Hm, I'd maybe suggest Jock's Lodge for the eastern boundary; and Corstorphine somewhere for the western.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. Frenchy
    Member

    @IWRATS - that's roughly where the congestion charge zone cordon was proposed, isn't it? Except with an eastern boundary that was just west of the Parliament. Remarkable coincidence, that.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    @Frenchy, take it you mean the inner cordon: outer cordon was the Bypass no?

    Anyway things have changed since then: high density residential developments going up anywhere there's space to the east, north and south of the Parly, including places where no housing has ever been, e.g. former factories, railway sidings, light industrial units, etc. An LEZ zone will need to cover these rapidly growing areas of population or it will be a mockery.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. gembo
    Member

    @crowriver, think was beyond the bypass a little? The gammonh petrol heads of Balerno objected that they would have to pay it just to get to Juni green. Of course may have been a gammon fact.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    If death really is vanquished inside the zone will Balerno wish to be in or not?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. unhurt
    Member

    as @gembo will attest Balerno is already the Uttermost West - or perhaps Emain Ablach around Apple Fest time.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. HankChief
    Member

    Petition from the LibDems pushing for Corstorphine to be inside the LEZ

    https://www.christinejardine.com/clean_air_petition_launched

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. gembo
    Member

    One of the reasons the original congestion charge failed at referendum was the cordon was very far out near the bypass. So short journeys from outside of the bypass to the inside, e.g. Currie to Juni green/ gillespie's X road incurred a charge. I think this may just have been hokum though and would still go for cordon just inside the bypass rather than original CC which was perhaps just outside the bypass. The main objection was not being able to drive with impunity of course.

    So a tight cordon around the city centre might seem more attractive. However that will not stop people commuting from fife and west Lothian and polluting corstorphine and the ferry road and parking in the burbs.

    Any cordon will always have parking just outside its perimeter.

    So an outer cordon is my preference as I am of the view That the congestion has ramped up since the bridge toll was abolished. Obviously correlation rather than causal.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    For the ANPR cameras or whatever they're going to use to identify vehicles to charge, there needs to be limited access/egress routes to the LEZ. Hence Glasgow proposes using the M8 on 2 sides and the river on another.

    Therefore in Edinburgh (as with past road charging proposals) the bypass remains an option, or more centrally, physical barriers like the Water of Leith or the Cowgate may play a part.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    And for the above reason, I think it's very unlikely a linear LEZ 'corridor' would be extended to Corstorphine alone.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. toomanybikes
    Member

    Good point about needing barriers to save huge camera bills, although it could be a good opportunity to block more side roads off as through routes to expand the LEZ. The Mini Holland's are apparently working in Holland https://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2018/jun/26/mini-holland-schemes-have-proved-their-worth-in-outer-london-boroughs

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. acsimpson
    Member

    Given the obviously likely outcome of people abandoning their motor vehicles just outside the periphery putting the cordon just inside the park and ride sites strikes me as an attractive idea.

    Am I remembering the referendum incorrectly when I say there was a proposed exemption CEC residents? It really did seem like a case of turkeys voting for congestion.

    I don't think you would need to have cameras at every entry and exit point for an extended LEZ zone to work. It might be possible to have an effect with one or two well placed cameras. For instance if the desire is to reduce the through traffic on St John's road then putting one Camera outside Hart's Cyclery and one at the Clermiston Road polution monitor might have a reasonable effect.

    Another alternative might be to have a penalty system where people are required to pay when crossing the cordon but without 100% monitoring. Mobile cameras could then be used and punitively high penalties issued to anyone not paying.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. dougal
    Member

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44567075

    "When looking at research into whether [clean air] zones have worked, bear in mind that the point of them is to accelerate the modernisation of the vehicles being used."

    Maybe I'm being hopelessly naive here but the point is *not* to sell more cars.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Am I remembering the referendum incorrectly when I say there was a proposed exemption CEC residents? It really did seem like a case of turkeys voting for congestion.

    I have a hand-annotated map of the proposed congestion charging zone, when that was a thing and 'we' were yet to vote against it.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. Ed1
    Member

    A congestion charge with a city exemption may have the effect of building extra road and create new journeys to re fill the road.

    It may be better if charging was based on every mile travelled in the centre area rather than where the journey began or ended. A congestion charge with a Edinburgh exemption would seem politically popular so surprised was not voted in but possibly not make that much difference. Cold starting a diesel in the city center is particular bad for nox

    A LEZ does not have to have any congesting charges although it could do for vehicles that exceed certain pollution levels however they are defined.

    In respect to NOx Edinburgh council is not currently using the levers they have. Edinburgh parking permits are based on CO there is still often an inverse relationship between low co and high nox. Although there is now electric cars they still make a small percentage of the total vehicle fleet.

    When the original co changes to tax discs ( yes i know but it is pedantic), and car miles were introduced there was no Ncap electric car on sale in the uk and policy effectively incentivised diesels as was either petrol or diesel options the largest petrol truck GM v8 has lower nox than a diesel fiesta.

    If nox is where Edinburgh is breaching targets then to address the problem it may be best to address the cause. The council should already have switched away from emissions based permits pricing as focused on CO typically promote more local pollution higher nox.

    The council are coping the duff UK policy that labor introduced, in France and Germany diesels were grandfathered in, in the uk diesels were promoted when knowledge of the damage was already widely known putting co targets above lives.

    The uk government politically may not want to crack down on diesels, there may be a number of reasons for this, many of new labour mps that choose EU co targets over public health are still in office, the officials are also still in office, the UK sells a lot of cars manufactured by abroad owned cars makers many land rover, jaguar, land rover mini rolls rolls Royce are diesel or owned by manufactures that have most of their engine investment in diesels.

    I would guess part of the uk government saying are going to ban both petrol and diesel cars in 20 years is to protect diesel cars today. It may protected diesel cars today by bunching with petrol which are far less dangerous to health and setting a date in the future, makes people think already addressed and also detracts from the danger the same way cigarettes company compared their product to other products that bad but less bad, makes the worse product appear safer.

    The correct solution would be to target the problem as European city are doing and ban the vehicles that produce most of the nox the diesel private cars.

    Edinburgh council does not have to concern its self with the wider political implications by scrapping the permit price disparity. Bmw ( or whoever) is not going to write letter to Edinburgh to advise of loss of investment if council scrap parking permits based on co as has effect of making higher nox cars more attractive.

    The council should ideally switch to pricing on nox, but as don’t have a uk gov data base for that may be too much like hard work but a single pricing may be better than a price that often offers higher nox cars a lower price. In the space of the sentence can think of a better one a two tier system that gives no exhaust cars a lower price than exhaust cars.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. HankChief
    Member

    Not getting any response to my request for more details of the LDs plans for the LEZ to include Corstorphine...

    https://twitter.com/hank_chief/status/1014866997732134913?s=19

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. HankChief
    Member

    "And real change will also need more investment in cycle paths and safe walking routes, as well as investing in continuous improvement of our public transport links and protection for our green belt from so many housing proposals in which there is no suitable infrastructure.

    It’s not going to happen quickly but we have to make a start.

    Some of the proposals might involve personal change like switching to public transport from driving ourselves everywhere. Or perhaps encouraging more people to think about cycling along properly designated and maintained cycle paths."

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/christine-jardine-the-polluted-air-she-breathed-killed-my-mum-1-4768713

    Posted 5 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    Scotland's first low-emission zone launched in Glasgow

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-46714705

    Posted 5 years ago #
  23. Morningsider
    Member

    ...which for the whole of 2019 requires 20% of buses passing through central Glasgow to meet the Euro VI emissions standards required for all new buses introduced in the EU since 31 December 2012. For 2020, 40% of buses, 2021 60% of buses...etc.

    LEZ requirements won't apply to cars, taxis etc. until 2023 (the council claim 2022 - but I think introducing something on 31 December 31 is cheating somewhat) - by which time almost all vehicles in use in Glasgow will already meet the required standard due to fleet replacement.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

  25. CycleAlex
    Member

    The proposed penalties for LEZ violations are surprisingly strong. For example, the tiers proposed for private vehicles are: £60 -> £120 -> £240 -> £480 -> £960 -> £1920 -> £3840 -> £5000

    How long it takes to change tiers is also discussed. One proposal would move up a tier after three violations. Another would allow longer on lower tiers but rapidly scale up after repeated violations.

    Consultation: https://consult.gov.scot/transport-scotland/low-emission-zones/

    Posted 4 years ago #
  26. chdot
    Admin

  27. jonty
    Member

    Can't they just announce that the car part of the LEZ is definitely happening on a certain date, then as long as the implementation is finished by then it's all OK?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    Joseph Carter, head of Asthma UK & British Lung Foundation Scotland, called for the government to reconsider the move.

    He said: “We are shocked and disappointed to see Scotland’s Low Emission Zones (LEZs) paused at this time. Recent research has demonstrated a link between the levels of urban air pollution and the effects of COVID-19, so it is vital now more than ever that we push ahead with LEZs to help protect our nation’s lung health.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/council/scottish-government-delay-edinburghs-low-emission-zone-shouldnt-be-allowed-be-excuse-more-warm-words-warn-disappointed-councillors-2846369

    Posted 3 years ago #
  29. HankChief
    Member

    Our new Tory transport spokesperson said

    "Perhaps this is the time that Edinburgh’s SNP Administration, took a leaf out of the SNP Scottish Government’s play book and paused many of their vanity projects and consultations."

    I've asked her on twitter to give example of the vanity projects she would like paused. No response yet...

    https://twitter.com/hank_chief/status/1258662867357794304?s=19

    Posted 3 years ago #
  30. toomanybikes
    Member

    There couldn't be a better time to reduce pollution.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/is-air-pollution-making-the-coronavirus-pandemic-even-more-deadly

    Why on earth would you pause them, we need all the traffic reduction methods we can get at the moment.

    Holding back bags and bags of rule 2 violations

    Posted 3 years ago #

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