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Pavement parking - another consultation.... (and implementation)

(208 posts)
  • Started 6 years ago by Stickman
  • Latest reply from Arellcat

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  1. neddie
    Member

    Living Streets petition to close the pavement parking bill loopholes:

    https://e-activist.com/page/26541/action/1?ea.url.id=1453573&forwarded=true

    AFTER A 10-YEAR FIGHT, SCOTLAND IS CLOSE TO OUTLAWING PAVEMENT PARKING.
    NOW WE MUST MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO LOOPHOLES.

    The transport bill currently under review in the Scottish Parliament sets out a national ban making parking on pavements an enforceable offence across the country, with very few local exceptions.

    Yet it currently:

    - makes exceptions for all "delivery vehicles", allowing vans to park on pavements for "up to 20 minutes"

    - does not define what a pavement obstruction is, which could make enforcement difficult

    - does not ban parking over dropped kerbs, which are vital for people using footways

    WE NEED THE LAW TO BE CLEAR:
    NO PAVEMENT PARKING, NO LOOPHOLES

    Posted 5 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Hmmm - the Bill does define a "pavement obstruction". The prohibition on pavement parking would apply to any stationary vehicle with one, or more of its wheels (or part of them) on the pavement. A vehicle is considered to parked even if the engine is running and/or the driver is in attendance at the vehicle. (Section 42)

    The exemption for delivery vehicles is more nuanced than presented (the driver must be able to show that the loading/delivery cannot reasonably be carried out without the vehicle(s) being parked on the pavement or double parked) although I understand what LS are getting at.

    I'm all in favour of strengthening the Bill - but getting this stuff wrong just lets the Scottish Government bat the petition away with the argument that it is based on a misunderstanding of the legislation.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  3. ejstubbs
    Member

    There are already rules about what constitutes "loading and unloading" in areas where on-carriageway parking is not allowed but loading is. These are fairly well explained here (note that the limit is 20 minutes, same as the exemption to the pavement parking ban allowed in the bill). BUT the rules are (a) so widely abused, and (b) so inadequately enforced, that they seem to exist more as an excuse for lazy, selfish, obstructive and inconsiderate parking than as a means to enable the genuine needs of delivery drivers to be met. Typical example: the white van parked illegally outside the butty shop while the builders "load" their lunch.

    I have no reason to expect that having a similar loading exemption for pavement parking wouldn't very quickly be abused and inadequately enforced in exactly the same way. And when Joe/Joanne Blow - who doesn't really understand traffic law anyway, having not even glanced at the Highway Code since he/she passed his/her test way back in the dim and distant past (when, apart from anything else, the roads were a lot quieter than they are now) - sees other drivers continuing to park on the pavement with apparent impunity, they will very likely assume that "you're not meant to do it but nobody really minds/cares" and continue to do it themselves.

    On top of this, allowing parking on the pavement in fairly regularly occurring (by no means "exceptional") circumstances - ie making deliveries - helps to normalise the idea that "a little bit of" driving on the pavement (which is a necessary requirement for parking on the pavement, assuming that you can safely rule out supernatural intervention, or some unimaginably unlikely human mechanism) is OK because the law implicitly permits it. Actually, of course, the law does not do anything of the sort. Allowing pavement parking in anything other than critical emergency situations creates a legislative nonsense IMO.

    I have made these points in my submission via the link kindly provided by neddie.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  4. ih
    Member

    @Morningsider I don't think the Bill defines "pavement obstruction". From a quick reading, it doesn't mention obstruction at all. What it does well is to define "pavement parking" and "double parking", and bans them, but the exemptions and exceptions drive a coach and horses through these prohibitions.

    First, the exemptions: I presume these would allow pavement parking on a street basis where the pavement is wide enough to permit either 2 wheel or even 4 wheel parking where it would not cause an "obstruction". Problem is that "obstruction" isn't defined so the vehicle could block the whole pavement where an exemption is in place. There is a vague section that explains how exemptions are defined:

    "
    Section 56
    (1) The Scottish Ministers may direct local authorities in connection with the exercise of their functions under this Part.
    (2) A direction under subsection (1) may, in particular—
    (a) specify assessments to be carried out in connection with the making of exemption orders,…
    "

    Second, the exceptions: these are exceedingly widely drawn and include, emergency services, any roadworks or maintenance, any visiting medical practitioner, any business activity involving loading. Even the first 3 categories (which might in some circumstance be reasonable) are too loose. Emergency and medical vehicles should be on a genuine call, and road maintenance vehicles should only be excepted if the work itself requires the vehicle to be there (eg. a digger). As for loading, this is where all the usual excuses will be made to permit pavement parking and there will be no enforcement so everyone will do it. And as with the exemptions there is nothing in the Bill to say that excepted vehicles should not obstruct all of the pavement.

    Finally, I can't see anything about not parking by dropped kerbs (unless other legislation covers that}.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  5. Morningsider
    Member

    ih - I see, you mean an obstruction caused by a vehicle that benefits from an exemption that has parked on the pavement.

    I assume that would still be dealt with by the police under Section 99 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and the Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 (as amended). There is no legal definition of an obstruction as it would be a nightmare to define - it is really one of those things where you know it when you see it.

    Lets face it, this is all academic - current and future enforcement of pavement parking and double parking prohibitions will be nonexistent outside of town centres. People will continue loading bacon rolls from Greggs, wheels will edge onto pavements, cycle lanes will be blocked and blind eyes will be turned.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    I think a key thing, after legislation is passed, is making sure ‘everyone’ knows who is responsible for enforcement (police or not).

    Random parking will continue, but persistent or major obstructions (unable to get buggies past) will be easier to deal with.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  7. Morningsider
    Member

    chdot - Local authorities will be responsible for enforcing the pavement and double parking restrictions, while the police will remain responsible for dealing with obstructions.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  8. Frenchy
    Member

    So a car obstructing the pavement could be dealt with by either the police or council?

    Posted 5 years ago #
  9. ih
    Member

    My understanding from other threads and discussions is that for the police to accept a vehicle is obstructing (something) is that it must be totally blocking the passage. There needs to be something defining that where any of the exemptions or exceptions apply, there must be a minimum width of pavement left free, and I would base that minimum on the principle that two moderate sized buggies should be able to pass each other. Enforcement should be by police or local authority, and the sanction should be immediately available, not after some waiting period (as is now frequently applied to vehicles "loading").

    Posted 5 years ago #
  10. mgj
    Member

    Since we know this is never going to be a police priority, this should be a civil offence, and private companies should be encouraged to levy the fines on behalf of councils, or we take a more radical approach (which might actually work) and allow individuals to tackle obstructions in whichever way they see fit (for example removing part of the vehicle blocking their path with a key or screwdriver...)

    Posted 5 years ago #
  11. Ed1
    Member

    Who would resource pavement parking, even if was a civil offense. In the center there is parking attendants already there, but in areas where there are no parking attendants may not be resourced.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  12. neddie
    Member

    What I cannot get my head around is how you can have a new law that allows pavement parking (through exemptions) when there is already an existing law that prevents driving on the pavement. So there is no legal way to park on the pavement, as for all practical purposes one must drive on the pavement to get there.

    You cannot change one law without changing the other.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  13. Morningsider
    Member

    The proposals are that the prohibitions on pavement parking and double parking are subject to civil enforcement by local authorities. The police won't touch them - although they will still have the power to deal with obstructions.

    Enforcement action will only be taken where an enforcement officer sees a car parked on the pavement or double parked, or evidence is produced by an authorised device - probably an ANPR enabled CCTV camera. Photos/video from members of the public will count for nothing.

    Driving on the pavement will remain an offence - hopefully an MSP takes the Minister to task on how this is compatible with allowing pavement parking (even in limited circumstances).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  14. ih
    Member

    Here's the story of how pavement parking was made illegal nationally by the Road Traffic Act 1974, but never actually enabled. The provision was repealed in 1992.

    https://pedestrianliberation.org/2011/08/07/the-sorry-tale-of-the-road-traffic-act-1974/

    Don't hold your breath for the current attempt.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  15. ejstubbs
    Member

    Interesting - if depressing - link, thanks for posting it. Does anyone know whether legislation in the Scottish Parliament also has to go through this enabling stage - and could therefore be indefinitely delayed as was the case with S7 of the RTA 1974?

    I note in that article the reference to the Heavy Commercial Vehicles (Controls and Regulations) Act 1973. Highly unusually, this act does not seem to be available on http://www.legislation.gov.uk. However, I did manage to locate this more or less contemporaneous article in a trade journal about the provisions of the act:

    "Heavy commercial vehicle" ... [means] any vehicle, whether mechanically propelled or not, which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of goods, and has an unladen weight exceeding 3 tons.

    Section 2 of the Act adds a new section to the Road Traffic Act 1972. This new section, which is numbered Section 36A, reads:—
    "A person who parks a heavy commercial vehicle wholly or partly (a) on the verge of a road; or (b) on the land situated between two carriageways and which is not a footway; or (c) on a footway; shall be guilty of an offence." There is a maximum penalty of a £50 fine for this offence.

    Later in this Section, however, it says a person shall not be convicted of this offence if he proves to the satisfaction of the court that the vehicle was parked in accordance with permission given by a constable in uniform; or that it was parked for the purpose of saving life.

    It is also a defence to prove that the vehicle was parked on a verge or a footway (not the centre reservation in this instance) to load or unload which could not have been done satisfactorily elsewhere and that the vehicle was not left unattended at any time while parked.

    Section 72 of the Highway Act 1835 makes it an offence to drive on the footway and as recently as 1950 in McArthur v Jack (SC(J) 29) it was held that even though the driving lasted for only a few seconds the offence was complete. How does one reconcile the law contained in this old Act with the new law which gives tacit permission to park on the footpath in certain circumstances? It would seem that one could park on the footpath under the one Act and commit an offence by driving on the footpath under the other. One can only hope that the courts will take the commonsense view and forget the 1835 Act when dealing with cases of this kind.

    If advantage is to be taken of the defence that the vehicle was parked for
    loading or unloading then it must be proved that the vehicle was not left unattended at any time while it was so parked. If, for example, the driver was carrying cartons into some premises and for short periods no one was left with the lorry then this defence would be of no avail. The Act does not specify that the driver must remain in attendance while the vehicle is parked on a verge or footway for loading or onloading; it requires that the vehicle is "not left unattended". A driver's mate, shop assistant, warehouseman or any other person standing beside the vehicle would ensure that the vehicle was "not left unattended".

    One would assume that the reason for requiring someone in attendance with the parked vehicle was to ensure that no danger was caused and that no person was injured. One could imagine the attendant guiding a blind person around the vehicle but there is nothing in the Act to require any such safety precautions to be carried out. The vehicle just must not be left unattended.

    The act does appear to be a little bit clearer about the loading & unloading exemption (as highlighted above). Why those few extra words could not be included in the Scottish bill is not clear. It's almost as if nobody bothered to review existing legislation when drawing up the current bill... (Given that they managed to draw up the previous bill without actually having any authority to pass it, perhaps such a lack of rigour is not wholly a surprise.)

    While it's nice that this law exists, I suspect that one would not have to look very hard to find numerous examples of it being broken every working day around the UK.

    Note that the fifth paragraph of the extract posted above highlights the legislative mess created by having two laws, one of which makes driving on the footway illegal (even for just a few seconds, as established in McArthur v Jack 1950), while the other allows parking on the footway in certain circumstances - which requires the commission of an offence under the first law.

    Carlton Reid, as ever, has written a well-constructed blog post on the issue (which has, predictably and depressingly, received the inevitable gammon-faced comment).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  16. Frenchy
    Member

    One of my MSPs was having a surgery at my local library today, so I went past and moaned about this to them in person.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  17. acsimpson
    Member

    I was having a look at the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984 and came across this snippet in section 129

    "(6)A person who parks a motor vehicle (“motor vehicle” having the same meaning as in the M35Road Traffic Act 1972) wholly or partly on a cycle track commits an offence."

    If I understand it correctly then anyone parking on a cycle track in Scotland is already committing a statutory offence. I assume this doesn't apply to shared use paths but for the very small amount of segregated cycle path in Edinburgh may be of use.

    However I don't know if this offence would come under the councils enforcement or remains a police matter.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  18. Frenchy
    Member

    The Minister has responded to my moaning:

    • To say that the 2016 Scotland Act gave the Scottish Government powers to legislate on dropped kerbs. They are now working on secondary legislation which would come into force at roughly the same time as the Transport Bill.
    • To highlight that the loading exemption only applies if loading "cannot be reasonably be carried out without the vehicle being parked on a pavement" [their emphasis].

    Posted 5 years ago #
  19. mgj
    Member

    Yes, the same as parking in an advisory cycle lane; not allowed if it is reasonable to park elsewhere. Many drivists seem to assume that it is not reasonable to have to walk 20 feet.

    Posted 5 years ago #
  20. ejstubbs
    Member

    To which the obvious response would seem to be: what does the minister think would be adequate reasons for parking on the pavement to make a delivery? I would suggest that "so as not to block the road" should not count, although it so often seems to be why people do it now.

    Although not pavement parking, I did witness this yesterday:

    Parked in a bus stop clearly marked "No stopping at any time except buses", and with his outriggers blocking the footway (unfortunately you can't see that in the photo). He was delivering some timber and a stack of Celotex, both of which I believe would easily have fitted in a LWB van which could have been parked on the drive of the delivery address and unloaded manually (the driver certainly looked as if he could do with the exercise).

    Posted 5 years ago #
  21. chdot
    Admin

  22. Frenchy
    Member

    Michael Matheson just said in a Transform Scotland hustings thing that he expects that the pavement parking ban will actually be implemented in 2023.

    Transport Scotland are drawing up guidance, they will then consult with local authorities about that guidance. Then local authorities will need to assess all the streets in their area to find places where exemptions are needed.

    Twenty twenty three...

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. crowriver
    Member

    What ban? Do you mean the legalisation of pavement parking for "up to 20 minutes" as long as you have the blinkies on?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. jonty
    Member

    Can't find a link now, but I understand legislation to ban pavement parking was passed in Westminster in (say) the 60s, but constantly delayed to give time for councils to figure out exceptions and eventually abandoned. Constant pressure needed to ensure the same thing doesn't happen here.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. Morningsider
    Member

    @jonty - Section 7 of the Road Traffic Act 1974. Eventually binned by you-know-who in 1979.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. gembo
    Member

    Fkn Milk Snatcher

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    It's a disgrace how long this is taking to implement in Scotland. It has now became the norm to park at least partly on the pavement regardless of how wide a road is.

    I've been getting a bit of success with some enforcement near my mothers who stays in Clermiston because some folk have been taking up the whole pavement. I honestly feel like telling the cops they just need to have a small walk around Edinburgh to see how bad the problem is.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. crowriver
    Member

    If you think the delay is a disgrace, just wait until the legislation is finally implemented - if that ever happens, let's say (allowing for pandemic related delays and general mulishness on the part of the transport minister) around 2025.

    You'll be astonished to see that nothing whatsoever has changed! (I won't be, but I have very low expectations of this fatally compromised bill). Vehicles will still be parking on pavements: either because of wide ranging exemptions granted by local authorities in response to protestations from irate drivers; or because nobody can be bothered to enforce the unenforceable "20 minute" loading exemption.

    This kind of legislation, consulted on and compromised to the point of meaninglessness (or even worse, contradicting the avowed intent by actually legalising what it purportedly "bans") is exactly what brings the Scottish parliament, and especially the SNP Scottish government, into disrepute.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  29. boothym
    Member

    Transport Scotland are drawing up guidance, they will then consult with local authorities about that guidance. Then local authorities will need to assess all the streets in their area to find places where exemptions are needed.

    Surely you just implement it and leave it up to the councils to turn a blind eye to the bits they don't want to enforce, instead of delaying the whole thing...

    @crowriver maybe I'm reading it wrong, but does section 55(6) not also mean you can't park on the pavement unless it's necessary and you need to leave more than 1.5m width? (in addition to the 20 minutes)

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/17/part/6/enacted

    Posted 2 years ago #
  30. lewiseason
    Member

    Vehicles will still be parking on pavements: either because of wide ranging exemptions granted by local authorities in response to protestations from irate drivers

    This—and especially the time exemption—is the worst part imo. Right now, most people know pavement parking is not-ideal. The ban will legitimise the "it's only for a minute" excuse we see already. Ugh.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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