Presumably, cars would (should) have to wait for any pedestrians who are currently crossing that golf club entrance, and given the bus stops' position, there are going to be more pedestrians than cyclists, so where does that leave the engineer's argument? This is no criticism of anybody's contribution to a much improved design, but it does show an all-too-ready tendency to find any excuse at all to prioritise car movements over cycles (cf. gyratories).
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Silverknowes Roundabout - Danger Alert
(155 posts)-
Posted 6 years ago #
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@ih Good point - the little known (or followed) rule 170. That does kick the engineer's argument straight into touch!
Posted 6 years ago # -
Well done all concerned on achieving a very positive outcome! This layout seems much better than what was originally proposed.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Work seems to be coming on well - still a mess of roadworks but you can see where the segregated cycleway behind the bus parking will be and the '@Harts cyclery' Zebra crossing.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I hear that the traffic lights have moved from the Silverknowes Roundabout.
Anyone been down to take a look?
Posted 6 years ago # -
All the roads are now open but cones still out as they are still to complete the zebra crossings and do something with the inner "turning space" of the roundabout. The segregated cycle lane looked complete but I was in a rush so didn't fully check.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Further to my message yesterday, all work on the Silverknowes Roundabout has ceased. I assume that this is because of the festive embargo?
Posted 6 years ago # -
Cllr Lang update
"SILVERKNOWES ROUNDABOUT UPDATE
We were pleased to see the traffic lights management removed at the Silverknowes roundabout last week.The remainder of the surfacing is (weather permitting) due to be completed by Monday 4th December and there may be some temporary traffic management off peak until that point.
The new zebra crossings should be functional by 8th December and all remaining works should be complete and the contractor off site by the 15th December"
Posted 6 years ago # -
Things seem to be a bit behind with the works on Silverknowes Roundabout. As of this morning, the zebra crossings are still not functional and to my mind, it looks unlikely that everything will be completed this side of Christmas.
My continuing concern is the level of traffic calming that the design provides. Because they reduced the size of the inner circle, the roundabout is now wider than it was previously which means cars have less roundabout to go around.
The hatched inner circle is completely inaffective at discouraging drivers from driving over it - almost as if red chips and paint aren't a substitute for real infrastructure. It might me improved if the council used the same raised paint which is used on motorways on stuff they don't want you to drive over?
Posted 6 years ago # -
I was looking at this the other day (pre-hatching), and my reaction was "they've made it faster!". The hatching is probably nudging people to take the outer lane slightly (think driver behaviour was worse when I watched for a few minutes the other day, but it also wasn't raining/ icy then), but still...
Guess it shows that small details of execution are all important.
Posted 6 years ago # -
When I was passing the cars were battering around it way too fast, which was why I stopped to film. Once I got the camera out, they were all on thier best behaviour!
Posted 6 years ago # -
Perhaps "guerilla-camera placement" needs to be added to the set of cycle-campaiging tools (like human bollarded lanes etc).
Posted 6 years ago # -
“Perhaps "guerilla-camera placement" needs to be added to the set of cycle-campaiging tools”
Wonder if such places are ideal for drone-filming?
Unlikely to affect driver behaviour and good for the ‘bigger picture’.
(Then following the worst offenders home of course...)
Posted 6 years ago # -
(Then following the worst offenders home of course...)
Yes, drone strikes are the way forward. They'll soon get the message. ;-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
Min - that might be a little extreme... ;-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
In Livingston when alighting the train at Livi south it is a 30 mph yet they boast the speed up to 50 mph just for a roundabout then back to 30 mph. The roundabout is off the A71 , not on it, so no reason for it be 50 in middle of town. The quality of west Lothian councils thinking makes Edinburgh look thoughtful.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I've emailed the engineer Martin and I met with regarding the crossing of the painted area. I must confess, I was under the impression from our meeting that this would be some sort of kerbed edge, which would discourage casual mounting.
Posted 6 years ago # -
"The hatched inner circle is completely inaffective at discouraging drivers from driving over it".
IMO the only change is that now the drivers are more used to the wider, smoother surface so they now have a better idea of how little they need to slow down for it.
The build-outs for the crossing don't reduce speeds at all because the carriageway of the roundabout is wider than it was previously so there is less need to turn around it, assuming that you cut across the hatched markings as most drivers do. However, they do make it feel less exposed when crossing there.
The only saving grace is the raised zebra that was then put in after Harts got involved.
You can already see from Reggie Tricker's video how worn the hatched markings have become from drivers constantly going over them.
IMO the cheapest and simplest way to solve this problem is to repaint the hatched markings using the raised paint used on motorways and the like. The slight discomfort of bumping over them would probably be enough to encorage drivers to follow the correct line.
Posted 6 years ago # -
I see that the rules about what hatching means have changed since I last looked - the Highway Code seems to change without any publicity these days, I always used to buy the latest edition.
Whether or not motorists should drive on this particular hatching does, I suppose, depend upon the definition of "necessary". As the hatching is bounded by broken lines then it should not be driven over "unless it is necessary". I daresay there is an argument that it is "necessary" to drive over the hatching in order, for example, to give good clearance to a cyclist on the left.
Of course, if the hatching had a solid border, then lorries and buses technically could not drive over it. Given that it is presumably there to allow their passage then broken lines it has to be,
Posted 6 years ago # -
legislation hasn't changed. Always been able to dive in hatched area if necessary.
I doubt if those involved are aware of the differences in hatching as you describe.This roundabout has been a shambles from start to finish
Posted 6 years ago # -
I didn't mention legislation, but the Highway Code which used to say, with reference to hatchings do not drive over these areas if you can avoid doing so with no reference to the nature of the border surrounding the hatching.
It now does differentiate between solid and broken border and, with reference to the latter you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so , which to me is a relaxation giving more scope to use these areas.
I would say there is a difference in meaning between "necessary" and "avoiding doing so".
Posted 6 years ago # -
IMO this hatching has been inappropriately applied. Traditionally, hatching has been used to separate traffic from hazards (either traffic coming in the opposite direction, or fixed obstacles) and is therefore quite easily understood and in general, complied with. This hatching (which I've only seen on the video clip above) does not perform that function. I'm not sure what function it is supposed to perform. Just as cyclists and pedestrians will create desire lines, so will drivers, that could easily have been predicted.
Posted 6 years ago # -
At the tram depot entrance on the Gogar Roundabout there is hatching and a raised bumpy white line but still the majority of drivers cut the corner.
It would have been better had they put the hatching on the outside of the kerb so you had a more reliable vehicle path when you are crossing on foot or bike
Posted 6 years ago # -
But hatching on the outside of the kerb would prevent cyclists using that area as the Code applies to cyclists too. I really don't see the logic of the hatching at this location - either way it brings cyclists and motorists in to conflict.
Posted 6 years ago # -
Blueth; you're right. It was me that mentioned legislation.
Don't know when you last looked at a Highway Code but my 2007 version says exactly the same!
Posted 6 years ago # -
I have a pile of them dating back to the Seventies :-)
Posted 6 years ago # -
Got a reply to my email from the design engineer.
Excerpt:
I would recommend taking an incremental approach to the problem with the next step to enhance the markings by introducing a solid white line around the perimeter of the hatched area to replace the existing broken line and also include ribs on the solid white line, similar to that you find on the edge of the motorways which gives vibration and audible signals to drivers when driven upon. This would give them warning that they are entering an area that is not normally meant to be driven on.
The next step after that if proven to be ineffective would be to make the hatched area more visible using a brightly coloured surface treatment.
The existing markings are due to be renewed as they are not to the required standard and are already showing signs of excessive wear, the introduction of the solid white line could be done at the same time to reduce costs but more importantly could be done relatively quickly.
Posted 6 years ago #
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