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Electric scooters

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  1. Arellcat
    Moderator

    But I do think they need to be at least as heavily regulated as ebikes - max motor power and speed should be in line with EAPC

    Yes, because whether or not they are properly limited to 15mph, they are basically electric motorbikes. It nonetheless seems faintly ridiculous that an e-bike rider going at 15mph doesn't require motorcycle-level safety equipment, yet an e-scooter rider does.

    I had the idea once that in order to prevent twist-and-go riding, the scooter should have foot sensors to cut off power if both feet are onboard whilst moving at more than, say, walking pace; and should only assist when physically scooting with one foot on. Of course that assumes wrongly that the only eligible users of an e-scooter would be people with two working legs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Yodhrin
    Member

    If I were in charge of the world, I'd probably say two classes of escooter;

    Class 1 as EAPC equivalents; no special PPE requirement, allowed on cycle paths/shared spaces, tweak the power/torque of the motors to give them some real punch when used to "foot-assist", but the throttle control should max out at 12mph(they don't have the same stability as a bicycle, I genuinely think letting them go 15+ wouldn't be safe - but if they did testing and proved otherwise, sure let them go 15), with the assist mode only functioning with one foot off and the throttle only being enabled with both feet on. No seat allowed.

    Class 2 as extra-lazy s-pedelecs; moped rules & restrictions, just the throttle, max speed of 20mph. Can have one of those shonky fold-up seat columns if you like.

    Also, I'd mandate they be designed differently so it's obvious at a glance which is which, bigger wheels on the class 2s etc - if the polis see a dinky one zipping by at speed there shouldn't be any doubt it's illegally modified. Class 1s fill the "get off a train/bus and zip along the last mile to work" and "teenager who can't get anywhere useful around where they live with a manual scooter anymore but doesn't want a bike" use cases, Class 2s for people who want a bit more range but still want the multi-modal travel option.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    Too sensible…

    “for people who want a bit more range but still want the multi-modal travel option“

    I’ve seen a guy a few times getting on trains with a ‘chunky’ e-scooter he’s a bit chunky too - probably wouldn’t use a bike and is not using a car.

    Says he occasionally has arguments with train crew - just gets on, not necessarily where there are bike spaces.

    On “multi-modal’, I was on a 158 2 car yesterday. Standing room only before it left Waverley.

    Only person with a bike so good service for me. Got there early to make sure I got a space and a seat. Given up going to Haymarket if I think train likely to be busy.

    Generally avoid 158s but they seem to be more common on Saturdays than weekdays just now!

    Slightly perversely I think there’s a good case for taking out more seats for potential bikes (people more like to take them on trains if more chance of a space).

    Fewer seats means more people standing occasionally - but at least they’ll probably have more room - unless it’s all filled with bikes!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. chdot
    Admin

  5. chdot
    Admin

    Paris was a pioneer when it introduced e-scooters, or trottinettes, in 2018 as the city’s authorities sought to promote non-polluting forms of urban transport.

    But as the two-wheeled vehicles grew in popularity, especially among young people, so did the number of accidents: in 2022, three people died and 459 were injured in e-scooter accidents in Paris.

    In what was billed as a “public consultation” voters were asked: “For or against self-service scooters?”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/02/parisians-vote-on-banning-e-scooters-from-french-capital

    Ah consultation…

    Posted 12 months ago #
  6. stiltskin
    Member

    What the Guardian report doesn’t make clear is that the turnout was a massive 8%. Doesn’t really sound like The People Have Spoken

    Posted 12 months ago #
  7. neddie
    Member

    What this is really about is: "Streets are for cars. Cars have been killing and injuring people for so long that we've forgotten about that. And car drivers keep running over these pesky scooters so we better get rid of the scooters and preserve the death-on-our-streets status quo..."

    Posted 12 months ago #
  8. PS
    Member

    Not convinced that's the case, neddie. Abandoned e-scooters on pavements are a real PITA (I haven't been to Paris in 10 years, so can't speak for there, but in Brussels they were scattered about on pavements, causing blockages). They are also really heavy, so tricky to move when they are in the way. And speeding near peds on footpaths, they're possibly worse than bikes as they seem to have a smaller footprint and lower centre of gravity, so pass closer to peds and are less predictable.

    I'm also pretty sure Paris doesn't work as an example of a city that is currently screaming "streets are for cars".

    However, it's a shame there weren't any public consultations on whether cars should be allowed in cities back in the early 20th century.

    Posted 12 months ago #
  9. neddie
    Member

    @PS - you could pretty much apply all of your arguments above to cars, except the "smaller footprint" one. People have become completely blind to it.

    And despite all the high-profile anti-car stuff in Paris being bandied about social media as "how amazing", it remains a polluted, car-dominated, dangerous traffic sewer for the most part.

    As an example, I wanted to get a hire bike to cycle between Gare du Nord and Gare de Lyon and was told by a local in no uncertain terms not to: "just get the metro!"

    Posted 12 months ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Electric scooter rental experiment in French capital ends after 5 years of controversy

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/31/rented-e-scooters-cleared-from-paris-streets-on-eve-of-ban

    Posted 7 months ago #
  11. LaidBack
    Member

    Endured the ITV Tonight 'E-bikes and Scooters: Trouble on the Road?'

    Programme satisfactorily entertained its car-centric audience I'm sure.
    Peter Eland was one of the few pro-cycling voices. He used to run VeloVision magazine, a favourite place for our recliners to be reviewed. Later on did Electric Bike Magazine.

    Anyway main message was these bikes and scooters kill people and set fire to buildings. Car lobby will be very happy I'm sure.
    No comparisons were made with road deaths involving cars over same period.
    Not one of the big retailers were asked why they sell e-scooters either?
    E-bikes were found guilty by association. Cargobikes didn't feature at all and assumption was that it's really all about joy riding around while the poor motorist is trapped in his car. Was very regressive and very clever bit of programming.
    Ads for EVs followed!

    Posted 6 months ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    You do have to wonder if it’s all blinkered ‘car normality’ or just a *CONSPIRACY*(?)

    Posted 6 months ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    Apparently (in Paris) personally owned scooters are OK (legal).

    Unlike here…

    Posted 6 months ago #
  14. acsimpson
    Member

  15. ejstubbs
    Member

    @acsimpson: That's the article chdot posted 2 days ago.

    Although personal e-scooters are legal in France, they are more heavily regulated than e-bikes (or at least e-bikes in the UK, so long as the vehicle complies with the EAPC regulations) - reference. One exception is that French e-scooter users can be as young as 12 years old, whereas EAPC riders in the UK must be at least 14.

    Other rules applying to the use of personal e-scooter in France include are:
    - Insurance is mandatory;
    - A speed limit of 25kmph applies. This is the limit for motor assistance on an EAPC - you can ride your e-bike faster than that without assistance, and I frequently do, especially downhill. I suspect it would also be possible to ride an e-scooter unassisted at higher speeds than that e.g. downhill, though I'm not sure that it would be particularly advisable;
    - Use of headphones and/or mobile phone while scooting is forbidden;
    - Solo use only, no 'backies'.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  16. steveo
    Member

    When I was in Paris last year the amount of less conventional personal transport was interesting. Loads of electric unicycles and scooters.

    Dockless hire vehicles are always a pita people just dump them and wander off.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  17. chdot
    Admin

  18. gembo
    Member

    A few more this summer in Edinburgh but not like in Paris, Dublin etc

    Posted 4 months ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

    Like magic mushroom spores and vials of human growth hormone, e-scooters occupy a mysterious grey area in UK law, being legal to buy but illegal to use – in public, at least. So, unless you have an exceptionally long driveway, a home filled with palatial corridors or a private airfield, the chances are that if you own an e-scooter you are a criminal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/06/love-hate-uk-government-e-scooters-trials-regulation

    Posted 4 months ago #
  20. Arellcat
    Moderator

    E-scooters are heavy, around three times the weight of a regular e-bike, and can be difficult to control for first-time users, while their comparatively small wheels make them susceptible to the lumps, bumps and potholes that riddle Britain’s roads.

    Really? Three times? While I've never tried picking one up, let alone ride one, I find that hard to believe.

    Lime says that user feedback in London, where the speed is capped at 12.5mph, is that it is too slow and makes people feel more vulnerable.

    Probably the sense that you're very much on a scooter with relatively little machine around you, and because cars.

    I attended yesterday's latest talk by Fabrizio Cross on the Electrom light electric vehicle. I still want one, but in the UK it would be classed as a moped, and exercising at 100-200W whilst wearing even an open face bone dome isn't my idea of fun.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  21. steveo
    Member

    Lime Scooters are about 18kg according to the web, not that much heavier than a big mtb never mind a hire grade ebike.

    A 15mph limit like pedalecs would be fine. Its the 5-10" wheels that would worry me, Edinburgh potholes can swallow a mtb wheel.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  22. neddie
    Member

    Perhaps they should mandate that all e-scooters look like e-Bromptons?

    I mean the underlying problem solved here is that you can fold up an e-scooter and take on the train / bus / back of SUV* small car.

    But this problem is already solved by an e-Brompton, and it has reasonably sized wheels

    *only auto manufacturers marketing bull tells you that you "need" an SUV for transporting bikes

    Posted 4 months ago #
  23. steveo
    Member

    Yep, or even better protected lanes without heavy traffic chewing up the lane.

    There probably needs to be some basic research to show if the small wheels are actually as dangerous as they look. I'm commenting from a position of relative ignorance.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  24. MediumDave
    Member

    Subjectively my Dahon with its 20" wheels and 2.1" tyres handles most lumps and bumps better than my road bikes with 28"/700C wheels and 32mm/1.25" tyres. Steering on the Dahon is twitchier (frame geometry rather than tyre I suspect) so in some situations that might cause an issue for the Dahon that wouldn't occur for the road bikes.

    The e-scooters I tend to see have small diameter wheels but quite wide/fat tyres. Not measured the exact size so as long as the pothole isn't axle depth they will probably be fine.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    Yes it’s illegal

    But in the big scheme of police priorities

    And legal trials…

    I think I’ve decided that personal use is better than hire schemes (for scooters)

    #LivingstonRP observed a male riding this e-scooter on a footpath in Bathgate. They have been reported to the Procurator Fiscal for a licence offence, an insurance offence and for riding a motor vehicle on a footpath.

    The e-scooter was also seized.

    https://twitter.com/psosroads/status/1744762050985840643

    Posted 2 months ago #

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