CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
And no-one has mentioned the habitual placement of manhole covers on the line taken by cyclists through junctions.
I think that is all of them? Also those extremely slippery metal studs that are designed to kill pedestrians who stray from the narrow crossing. They work on cyclists too.
Haymarket
Drumbrae Roundabout
Maybury / Gogar junction (has some cycle paths but very unclear how to get to/from them and even then some routes are impossible)
The Gyle
Gogar Station Road (my personal favourite! )
For junctions, roundabouts are tricky because of the cars looking to make a quick dash into a space.
One other consideration is how easy is it to avoid a problem junction/road. Living in a busy city it can be hard/impossible to avoid some of them without using a different mode of transport.
"Or you've become habituated to the bits that you travel regularly?"
Absolutely. I'll blithely cycle through Picardy Place by taking the lane and asserting myself.
I'm content doing that because it's what I've always done and I put a great deal of faith in the belief that most motorists will not intentionally ram a cyclist on a roundabout. Having not been taken out to date, experience tells me that this approach seems to work okay. People get comfortable doing risky things if they do them enough times.
However, I also know that:
a) a lot of people won't like cycling like that;
b) there is a chance that a motorist is inattentive;
c) there is a chance that a motorist is too aggressive;
d) there is a chance that I misjudge the space/time I have;
so I'd welcome improvements to the junction that allow me to get through it efficiently without these unnecessary risks.
A lot of junctions in Edinburgh don't faze me over much, partly owing to the number of times I use or don't use them and thus governing the exposure I have to other vehicles. But there are some contenders nonetheless.
1) Calder Road roundabouts. All three of them, and particularly when going straight across north or south. I use the Saughton-Longstone one a lot, and it even has a manhole cover right in the way of primary in the nearside lane.
2) Gilmore Place to Leven St junction. I hate this with a vengence. You risk getting struck by vehicles entering Gilmore Place. Unless first in line you have to wait for all the vehicles exiting Tarvit St to Gilmore Place, and they have a longer green light phase than the traffic exiting Gilmore Place. I'm frequently stuck at this stupid horrible junction for two cycles of the traffic lights. Oh yes, and the surface shakes my bike to pieces as well, regardless of secondary or primary position.
3) Cameron Toll gyratory. Seems worst on the Peffermill-Old Dalkeith Rd-Lady Rd half, owing to the very tight lane markings and lack of time to change lanes, though statistically I think it may be on the safer end of the spectrum.
4) Braid Road/Braidburn Terrace mini roundabout. I have had more "near-misses" at this junction than anywhere else in Edinburgh, even the Calder Road. Carries far too much traffic and has unwritten rules of engagement that seem to favour northbound vehicles above the conventional give way criteria. You also get blinded by northbound vehicles at night.
5) Haymarket westbound.
6) Crewe Toll roundabout.
=) Drum Brae roundabout. Too much traffic carried on both of these junctions in too many lanes squeezed together.
7) Granton Square. There is too much tarmac to play with and vehicle speeds are just too high, especially those speeding into the junction from the eastern side of Granton Road. The gradient doesn't help westbound cyclists who are trying to get from Lower Granton Road to west Harbour Road.
8) Turning right from Bristo Place into Teviot Place. Did they put all those metal studs on the road just to trip up all the cyclists or something?
I put a great deal of faith in the belief that most motorists will not intentionally ram a cyclist on a roundabout.
I met the one that would a couple of years ago.
Not to alarm you or anything..
I initally decided not to contribute to the thread because I don't cycle in peak rush hour in Edinburgh and so don't have to deal with the level of traffic that others do. I think I am probably habituated to the poorer junctions I use regularly. However I will add a +1 to:
Calder Road - I've been along here a couple of times in rush hour when my usual route was closed and it was very scary.
The Kings Theatre junction.
The A8 from The Gyle to the airport - in spite of officially being a 40 mph road this is the one place I pick using a rubbish shared use path over cycling on the road. When I drive at 40 it seems everyone else just bombs past me. If CEC want to generate some income they should put up a couple of speed cameras - they'd pay for themselves in days...
they may not ram you intentionally on a roundabout but they will and do pull out on to the bit of roundabout you were about to cycle on either through complete inattention or because they misjudge your speed (even me, and I don't cycle very fast).
"...because I don't cycle in peak rush hour in Edinburgh and so don't have to deal with the level of traffic that others do..."
There are situations in which high traffic volumes with low traffic speeds when they get gummed-up during rush hour make some junctions easier to get across (if not exactly safer), particularly roundabouts where high vehicle pressures at all inlets sometimes result in a more even distribution of escape opportunities.
I vote for the Gilmore Place/Kings junction as well. The fact that it's on NCN75 and the link between the canal & the meadows, makes it all the more annoying that it is so bad
Gosh, I forgot about that stretch of Queensferry Road. It makes my teeth rattle even walking on the pavement. Terrifying.
I must have just grown accustomed to the Gilmore Place/Kings junction over the years as I don't find it too bad. Granted the surface is abysmal and if you are waiting at the front of the ASL it's a good idea not to be too far right as buses turning into Gilmore Place tend to cut the corner a bit but other than that I've never had any issues. If anything the biggest issue I have here is other cyclists trying to pass me as I turn right because they *have* to get across the junction before the traffic from Tarvit Street arrives.
I can think of a lot worse junctions, most of which have already been mentioned e.g. Calder Road roundabouts, Drumbrae etc.
because they *have* to get across the junction
But you do have to, because the alternative is to miss the green, and therefore wait through the whole cycle of lights again. If you're not in a torpedo, you can become a pedestrian because the green man across Leven Street immediately follows.
Another one I've thought of is turning right from Slateford Road into Allan Park Road. Even when the offside lane of traffic stops to let you through, which takes ages because it first has to fill up the road all the way back from the Prince Charlie aqueduct traffic lights, the nearside lane (turning left for Allan Pk, and the onward bus lane) won't necessarily have noticed, and so the risk is continued. Even less fun on a recumbent.
@Arellcat I live in Allan Park and I hate that turn even in a car. As you say someone coming up the inside without paying attention happens too often. I also don't like sitting in the middle of the road waiting for a gap as I'm sure one of these days someone is just going to pile into the back of me by being distracted by someone pulling out from Dominos or trying to jump the red light at the pedestrian crossing.
But you do have to, because the alternative is to miss the green, and therefore wait through the whole cycle of lights again.
In my experience (could just be the time of day I commute) there is only a couple of vehicles coming out of Tarvit Street so I've never been affected by this.
Cars run the red here all the time because of the risk of missing the green, while cyclists tend to amber gamble so as to get across before tarvit street traffic. More than 2-3 cars coming out of tarvit can make it impossible for all the GP traffic to get through.
Question is, why is the timing of this phase so short? And is it worth asking for it to be adjusted?
The other thing about the Kings Theatre junctions is that the Tarvit Street green is longer than the Glimore Place green (apparently - it would be interesting to get some evidence of this) and so if you have gone right into the middle of the junction to turn right (which you are allowed to do - you may go and sit in a yellow box if you are waiting to turn right) and you have to wait for the Tarvit Street traffic to get a red light then you are still turning when the Leven Street traffic gets its green. (And they're probably ranting about idiot cycists running red lights, too.)
I used to think it wasn't too bad a junction (I don't commute through there) until I had several close calls there. If I miss the green I will walk across on the green man instead.
Question is, why is the timing of this phase so short? And is it worth asking for it to be adjusted?
Let's try. There's no reason I can tell why the Gilmore Place and Tarvit Street timings should be like that. It causes problems as cars (and cycles) held up turning right out of GP get a red and assume it's red the opposite way and beging to make their turn only to find traffic still coming out of TS on green. Not just confusing but dangerous.
the Tarvit Street green is longer than the Glimore Place green
From my own observations, I think this is correct.
However, the next phase in the lights is the 4-way green man. It means that right turning cycles (out of GP) do get to clear the junction - but on the green man - not ideal.
It's worse for cars turning right out of GP. If they get 'trapped' they have to complete their manoeuvre during the green man cycle, much to the rage of pedestrians.
I've quizzed Chris Brace on this junction before (about 1.5 years ago). His response was something along the lines of "This is our most difficult junction to get right. Many bus routes cross that junction. We have to balance the flow of all the buses."
So it's all about traffic flow (again). At least claiming to 'do it for buses' doesn't sound quite so bad. Andrew Burns is also aware of this junction. I just can't believe nothing has been done...
"I just can't believe nothing has been done..."
This Is Ed...
Though the other 'problem' is that they have been planning to do it as part of the 'Meadows to Canal' route.
That is currently out for consultation. It remains to be seen if 'all the issues' get dealt with.
Yes, 'not inconveniencing the buses' is (legitimately) part of the thinking - but there aren't that many using GP so perhaps they are getting unreasonable preference(?)
Yes, 'not inconveniencing the buses' is (legitimately) part of the thinking - but there aren't that many using GP so perhaps they are getting unreasonable preference(?)
This was the excuse trotted out for the pedestrian signal being so short at the junction of Montrose Terrace and London Road last year when I wrote to the Council asking for it to be made longer. The only buses that go up Montrose Terrace are a few peak express services, the occasional tour bus and now the new 113 East Lothian Buses service to/from East Lothian.
On the other hand I can currently see quite a lot of cars driving east on that junction, presumably having come from Abbeymount and Regent Road. So I suspect the real reason is 'peak traffic flow' than buses. Pedestrians will just have to run for it...
Late to the party, but it won't hurt to say it some more:
Gilmore place.
Gilmore place.
Gilmore place.
Gilmore place.
Gilmore place.
Sorry for reminding you all of it!
I think it was mentioned on the last page - turning right from Roseburn St onto Westfield Road. I used to commute that way and amongst the top reasons I stopped was that one turn. Even late in the evening it was a reliable way to get some adrenaline going and I don't mean the good kind. I recall doing it once during the run up to rush hour. Never again. If it wasn't for the WoL/Roseburn paths nearby I'd have given up commuting just because of the amount of pain you have to suffer around that area if you do it all on road.
I've only ever been up Oxgangs direction a handful of times but the mini roundabouts up there seemed to be a magnet for stupidity and aggressive overtakes when you're trudging your way up. Not to mention the gauntlet of traffic islands.
Bad memories of trying to do Queen St>Ainslie Place>Randolph Crescent>Drumsheugh Gardens in the dark and wet with traffic all around.
You can come off the WoL path just past the Colinton tunnel and onto West Mill Rd. This takes you via a short and steep climb to a somewhat dodgy junction if you're planning on heading up Bonaly road as I do around once a week. It's not intrinsically awful the way others are but I'm always slightly apprehensive when I have to come up and then into the middle of the Woodhall Road to head up to Bonaly - you can't get a good idea of what's coming from the left until you've already moved out.
I followed this (or perhaps other thread) up with an email. This is the reply I just got:
"Thank you for your enquiry of 19 December 2013 in relation to the above traffic signal
junction.
On receipt of your enquiry I have reviewed operation of this junction. Unfortunately, due to the large traffic volumes on Home Street there is no scope to increase the green time for Gilmore Place. However, as part of the inspection it was noted that the green time for Tarvit Street was slightly greater than the time allocated to Gilmore Place.
I have subsequently adjusted this which means that both roads, Tarvit Street and Gilmore Place are allocated the same amount of ‘green time’. Therefore, when a red
signal is shown to Gilmore Place, similarly a red signal is shown to the Tarvit Street approach, thus allowing right turning vehicles from Gilmore Place more opportunity to turn.
For your information the Council is currently looking into improving the facilities for cyclists at this location with a view to having these in place by 2015 subject to availability of funding.
For your re-assurance I have examined the accident record for the preceding three year period and I can inform you that no accident pattern or trend exists at this location."
Well, that is a result-ette, in the sense of getting the Tarvit Street timings sorted...
That is a result, but also begs the question, why was it like that in the first place. Was it intentionally set that way (well meaning or otherwise), or was it a mistake?
How many other mistakes are out there?
I know the Morningside/Comiston road reds at Morningside Station used to be slightly offset, but they seem to be the same now (although I haven't specifically checked for a while).
Only just seen this thread - I've had to cycle out south quite a lot recently and go over this junction from Mayfield road up Liberton Brae...
It exemplified a problem I have with some junctions - if it is not possible to get up to a decent speed in a place where you have to take primary you are then in my opinion more vulnerable as a cyclist.
Leaving up hill there and continuing up Liberton Brae you take the right lane. In rush hour this is completely chockablock almost from King's Buildings to the junction on Mayfield Road, with cars blocking the cycle lane completely rendering it useless. Filtering is perilous but possible - there is however no ASL at the front despite many hundreds of metres of queueing cars.
If you want to go up Liberton Brae, you have to take the rightmost of the two lanes in primary allowing cars in the leftmost lane turning up Kirk Brae to undertake, then the inevitable parked cars at the beginning of Liberton Brae mean you stay in primary. If you are lucky, you get a considerate and patient driver behind you, but the drivers are all understandably fed up with being sat in traffic in any case. I've not always been lucky and I go as fast as I can up that bit, but even the serious looking people in front of me the other day weren't going any faster...
I think this exemplifies my opinion (that I also made about the cycle infrastructure through Straiton/Bilston South) that maintaining a confident primary position and taking the lane is considerably easier if you are not struggling uphill or into a wind to which car drivers are oblivious.
For me it's Haymarket westbound. I can't get over what a terrible piece of road it is. There are now 3 sets of lights within 50 yards, pedestrians walking in the jug handle, a long row of bus stops opposite Roseberry Crecsent, the new taxi rank and bus stops directly opposite them, taxis steadily pulling U-turns, shocking road surface, poor quality street lighting plus the tram tracks. We haven't even added the trams themselves into this mix yet.
I'd also nominate the stretch of road where you come up from the Gogar roundabout underpass on the A8 and have traffic overtaking from the underpass and undertaking you from the roundabout. Did it once myself and if drivers let you pull in it'd be ok but they'd rather accelerate hard past your left shoulder to get ahead of the driver accelerating hard past your right shoulder. Not that the Gogar roundabout itself is easy especially since on half of it the lights are out!
That said I don't find Drumbrae roundabout that bad
@paul.mag - Ive done that bit from the Gogar underpass, and I completely agree! Potentially terrifying indeed...
Strange - but I don't find Haymarket westbound on my list of scarey junctions.
It's a really badly-planned junction and slows one down, but once you've got a plan, it's predicatable. I find the eastbound route through to Princes Street much scarier, as vehicles are busy swapping lanes in a rush.
In fact - now I think about it, all the parts of my commuting route I don't like are where cars are busy swapping lanes:
Eastbound towards Jock's Lodge
Eastbound at East end of Princes Street
Westbound at Morrison Street
@coxy I find it quite unpredictable just now, despite cycling it every weekday. The combination of pedestrians, traffic lights, taxis entering and exiting the rank and bus stops mean that I regularly find myself taking a different line. I even used the jug handle once but on exiting that had to stop again immediately due to the traffic lights.
What's your strategy for dealing with it?
Recently, I've been keeping left but not following the jug handle. Past the lights, I'll swing left towards where the taxis exit and then tuen right and take as perpendicular a line across the tracks as possible (not necessarily following the cycle markings).
Never had an issue with this - although occationally had to pause for a gap before crossing the rails.
Then it's primary position down to Haymarket Yards. Here I'll turn left and ride the centre between the two tracks. The cycle lane here is mental!
Back to Haymarket. When I tried to cross the tracks any earlier, there was a much greater risk of conflict. And the few times I took the right side at the ASL when the lights were red resulted in me getting the red mist and trying to chase down the b*s who cut me up!
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