CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

George Street Improvements

(1175 posts)

  1. chrisfl
    Member

    I just read that work on George Street was about to begin, so I went hunting for the plans which are here: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/download/774/experimental_george_street_order

    It looks like West of Frederick Street the extended pedestrian area and the cycle lane are on the North side, separated from the single lane of traffic by the parking area. With traffic flow one way towards Charlotte Square.

    At Frederick Street it Switches to the South. With traffic flow towards St Andrews Square.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. fimm
    Member

    How are you supposed to get through the junctions? The cycle lanes just vanish...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. wingpig
    Member

    "Cycle lane routes will also be indicated on the three roundabouts where George Street is crossed by Castle, Frederick & Hanover Streets."

    Experimental George Street order - Made Order Statement of Reasons

    Not on the plans, those bits, so presumably we'll just have to see what turns up?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. Morningsider
    Member

    One of the accompanying documents states:

    "Cyclists will notice the introduction of a dedicated two-way cycle path, travelling the length of George Street, which, if the experiment is successful, would become part of the National Cycle Network. The cycle lane will be on the pedestrianised side of the street, and will be located in the lane that is currently a traffic lane closest to the central reservation car parking area. It will run on the north side of George Street from Charlotte Square to Frederick Street, then flip to the south side of George Street from Frederick Street to St Andrew Square. The barrier between car parking and cycle lane will be formed by a rubber kerb at street level supported by attractive planters. The cycle lane will be separated from the pedestrian areas by a painted line, with cycle logos painted onto the road at 20m intervals. Cycle lane routes will also be indicated on the three roundabouts where George Street is crossed by Castle, Frederick & Hanover Streets. This is all designed to ensure that the George Street streetscape is made permeable, safe and attractive for all users of the street."

    Three problems spring immediately to mind:

    1. No physical separation from pedestrians, so potentially lots of pedestrians straying into the cycle lane.
    2. How do the junctions work?
    3. How do you cross George St where the cycle lane switches side?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. neddie
    Member

    [The cycle path will have] a width of 3m or thereby.

    So plenty of wiggle room to reduce the width where things get a bit difficult then.

    I wonder what fabulous routes they'll paint across the junctions - rubbishy standard 1m wide red track looping round the outside of the roundabouts no doubt.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    "
    2.7 Roseburn is at the junction of several pedestrian/cycle routes that converge from North, North West and West Edinburgh. There is currently no route suitable for less confident cyclists from here to and through the George Street/Princes Street area.

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/43371/item_78_-_development_of_major_cycling_and_walking_projects

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. Arellcat
    Moderator

    2. How do the junctions work?
    3. How do you cross George St where the cycle lane switches side?

    Probably more this:

    than this:

    http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/08/magic-roundabout.html

    or even this:

    http://goo.gl/maps/flrzN

    The roundabouts will probably be left as they are, perhaps with a bit of white lining. Though I'm perplexed by the decision to have half of it on the north side and half on the south.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. calmac
    Member

    "The cycle lane will be separated from the pedestrian areas by a painted line, with cycle logos painted onto the road at 20m intervals."

    Painted line on a very busy pavement.

    Seriously CEC, don't bother. Spend your money on something else. A new hat for the Lord Provost maybe. Because I'd genuinely rather have no new cycle facilities than ones that are a complete joke.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I'm really surprised there are both Resident's bays on George Street and quite so many "pay & display" areas on the kerbside.

    The swapping over of the cycle lane from one side to t'uther is both A/ mental and B/ more evidence [as if it were needed] that nobody in the council department responsible for these plans ever gets on a bike.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    Don't worry, it'll be fine, they will have learned from all the mistakes we've been pointing out this year...

    Though I still know what the plan for the Festival/Spiegeltent is.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. Morningsider
    Member

    Looking again at the plans, it seems hard to imagine a worse design that involves a segregated cycle lane. You have to negotiate three busy roundabouts - statistically the most dangerous place for a cyclist to be.

    If they don't sort out these junctions then they aren't really serious about this. The junctions need to be signalised and have a cyclist or cyclist/pedestrian phase.

    If that is too much then how about making the northern pavements on Queen Street (wide and little used) into shared use and making the pedestrian crossings toucans - at least you sort out the junction problem. Or how about creating a cycle/shared use path through Princes Street Gardens. I'm sure you guys can come up with better ideas than these.

    Honestly, this stuff really gets me riled. This is what the hard won cycling cash gets spent on!? What will happen at the end of the 12 month "experiment" when it turns out hardly any cyclists use this?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. cb
    Member

    http://news.stv.tv/east-central/279014-road-works-to-improve-edinburghs-george-street-to-start/

    Hinds: "But it’s also about creating an accessible space for pedestrians and cyclists and we will continue to work with stakeholders to ensure this works in practise"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. chdot
    Admin

    "how about making the northern pavements on Queen Street (wide and little used) into shared use"

    Yes, but no.

    LOTS of space on Q St. without using pavements.

    NO NEED to be a multi-lane 30mph (officially) highway so that vehicles are 'encouraged' to race between sets of lights on this short road.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. cb
    Member

    The Hanover Street junction is signalised is it not (not marked as such on OSM)?

    Are any of these junctions technically roundabouts, I don't think there are roundabout signs on the approach to them?
    Doesn't make them any safer of course.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. wingpig
    Member

    "What will happen at the end of the 12 month "experiment" when it turns out hardly any cyclists use this? "

    Hopefully they'll be receptive/responsive to rants/suggestions/complaints during the initial trial, perhaps even adjusting the non-TRO-defined bits like the precise course/size of the cycle suggestion lines across the junctions, particularly the north-south wiggle, if sufficient people find whatever they're initialy plotting to be dangerously unsatisfactory.

    Possible reasons for the north-south swap? Balancing heavy pressure for some extended pedestrian area from the Standing Order/Assembly Rooms/Hard Rock Café/Dome on the south side, versus all the fancy bars on the north side on the west section? Something less political to do with the available turn radii at each end?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Morningsider
    Member

    chdot - I'm not saying any of my suggestions were great, but I think they are better than what is proposed. The best thing would be to do George Street right in the first place.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. twq
    Member

    My understanding is the the cycle path will be road level, hence the need for planters to segregate. Then there'll be a curb and pavement.
    I still can't get my head around having to swap sides half way along. Madness.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "I'm not saying any of my suggestions were great, but I think they are better than what is proposed."

    Not disagreeing - beyond suggesting that a 'compromise' (riding on the pavement) should not even be put in CEC's 'head'!

    The underlying problem is that 'Q St. is a 'main traffic route - and couldn't possible be 20mph'...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. douglaswaring
    Member

    What will happen at the end of the 12 month "experiment" when it turns out hardly any cyclists use this?

    I will be using this with my rickshaw every weekend. It's ideal as it means the taxis won't be able to get as close to the bars.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. neddie
    Member

    I see that bi-directional Dutch cycle paths are 4m in width, not 3m as proposed by CEC.

    C'mon CEC - you can't even get the width right when there is an absolute ton of space!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Me wonders if the "switch" can be aligned to the relative numbers of bars/restuarants on each side of the street, with the pedestrian/cycling side put closest to the side with the most number of tables/chairs on the pavement, moving cars away from it, and then maintaining the fantasy that "loading only" spaces for shops are anything other than an obstruction to other motor vehicles.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. cc
    Member

    I shall use it once, just for the pleasure of riding down a bidirectional segregated on-street cycle path in Edinburgh at last, after all these years.

    Probably only the once though, unless/until it gets safely linked to a safe route to/from my home.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. Snowy
    Member

    The whole thing is a classic example of not thinking about where people are coming from and going to. Do we seriously have large numbers of cyclists trying to get from Charlotte Square to St Andrew Square and vice versa?

    The areas just to the east and west of George Street are absolutely murderous for cycling, namely, York Place/Leith St, and the West End (all of it). Until this is tackled, 'people' simply won't see cycling to/around the city centre as a safe and viable option.

    The money would have been far better spent on some of these other streets that currently have high traffic speeds, dangerous layouts, and other issues. George Street actually isn't that unsafe for cycling, in a way, because the traffic tends to be pretty slow.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. SRD
    Moderator

    Snowy, i couldn't agree more. the only rationale for it that I can see is to try and demonstrate to george street shops/restaurants that less car flow is better. but, obviously no one's going to bother using the cycle route.

    the official rationale for the use of george st is that the NCN supposed runs down it. but that's a rubbish reason for all the reasons you give.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. PS
    Member

    Me wonders if the "switch" can be aligned to the relative numbers of bars/restuarants on each side of the street, with the pedestrian/cycling side put closest to the side with the most number of tables/chairs on the pavement, moving cars away from it, and then maintaining the fantasy that "loading only" spaces for shops are anything other than an obstruction to other motor vehicles.

    I think that is the logic, such as it is. At Charlie Sq end, restos are on the north side, at St Andy's it's the south side.

    If the cross over junction bit is Fred St, I'm quite relaxed. It's not a particularly busy roundabout. Isn't entry to it from Princes St restricted? And the peds using the zebra crossings slow the traffic nicely.

    The main problem with all this is keeping the parking. It's hardly going to be a pleasant place to sip your lattee at a pavement table when the view consists of a car park. Can only hope that shutting the road for the festival helps encourage taking this further.

    Can we assume that the bloody city link coaches will be on Queen St in future rather than racing from junction to junction on George St?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. wingpig
    Member

    Prior to the changes, to remember it by:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. deckard112
    Member

    Do you know I really despair at how negative some of the comments on here are. I cycle George St most days into work and I've lost count how many times I've been nearly taken out by delivery drivers in the morning and parking space hunters in the afternoon. The new infra is not perfect...but I'll take it for now!!! Evolution not revolution can work!!!

    George St is the premier street in Edinburgh and I believe this is a big move politically for CEC to undertake this (particularly given failed projects such as the traffic management plan a few years ago).

    As for "obviously no one's going to bother using the cycle route..." - well I for one will!!

    and "Do we seriously have large numbers of cyclists trying to get from Charlotte Square to St Andrew Square and vice versa?" - Yes!! I see them every day!

    and "It's hardly going to be a pleasant place to sip your lattee at a pavement table when the view consists of a car park." - If you've done this in Paris, Rome or any other continental city then ours is no different, better even!!!"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Quite honestly, I doubt there has been any more thought put into which side the cycle lane should be on, other than ensuring motor vehicles are on the 'usual' side for their direction of flow. Despite that license that so many bang on about, drivers are such easily confused little souls...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Do you know I really despair at how negative some of the comments on here are.

    I can see where you're coming from, but I really must say I despair at a council doing something as bonkers as switching a bi-directional cycle path from one side of a main road to the other across a busy roundabout (which by the looks of the traffic flow, will be the busiest roundabout on the whole street it gives access to both directions). I agree it will be nice to have 100m between stops not getting harassed by taxis, delivery vans, buses and New Town Range Rovers with snorkels, but it's another case of Edinburgh's very long list of putting entirely unnecessary (and sometimes downright dangerous) obstacles in the middle of otherwise good bits of path.

    I do know that people who have to go to/through town will end up using this, but I don't seriously imagine it will encourage lots of new people to detour off their routes to use it (as many do with NEPN and the like), given the downright hostility of York Place / Leith Street at one end and the entire West End trambles and cobble assault course at the other. It's always going to fail the "would my Granny cycle on this*" test.

    * - other demographics of less confident of cycling in town are available. I'm well aware some grannies do cycle.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. PS
    Member

    The Council is looking at the York Place and West End links, mind.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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