@gembo
I wouldn't be surprised. You would stand out by refusing, once the ball is rolling.
I hope a cycle shop opens there. It really cheers me up, to see how many have opened in recent years.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL
(5559 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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Yes in solidarity. Businesses against the evil potential cycling customers? Glasgow now going for a £12 million mini-Holland. Pete hardly shy about naming his nemesis on his website.
We need to help Lesley hinds push this through before the SNP scrap it. I am afraid that the SNP are not so in favour of cycling?
Posted 8 years ago # -
From KSN "web site":
"I really hope as many of you can come as possible to the City Chambers for 3pm. I am trying to make it a bit special, so I have booked a loudhailer and invited local campaigner Lady Kirkwood to say a few words. Also 1 or 2 traders and a politician- one of our Ward Councillors, I hope. The whole thing won’t last more than 30 minutes. There’ll be a guest appearance of Cllr Hinds, of course. I’ll do my best to get the BBC to cover it."
*waits with baited breath for the revolution*
Posted 8 years ago # -
Nothing says "calm, reasoned argument" quite like a loudhailer.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"We need to help Lesley hinds push this through before the SNP scrap it."
Agreed.
" I am afraid that the SNP are not so in favour of cycling?"
That's an understatement. They are marginally more in favour of active travel than they were in favour of the Edinburgh trams. That is to say, they let the cash out of their grasp grudgingly and with gritted teeth, after much political pressure, muttering under their breath about how the money could have paid for at least half a mile of dual carriageway in a key SNP constituency...
Posted 8 years ago # -
"We can't guarantee that this will ultimately do the area good. & even if it does the area good, it may hurt individual businesses."
Yes but "we" aren't in any position to guarantee anything.
"There are competing interests here. Our side is for the ultimate good of the city but ultimate goods usually have immediate pain for someone."
It's not really about "sides" except that one person seems to have hijacked an 'issue' which affects people he may or may not have much reason to care about and grossly misrepresenting what is being PROPOSED.
I'm sure 'we' want improved cycle facilities AND good/better/more local shops. The 'threat' of this cycle facility is hardly any sort of reason to believe the sky will fall in. I would hope the council will be working with local businesses to make things less bad than they fear - maybe even better.
Unfortunately their self-appointed 'campaigner' is hardly doing them any favours.
Posted 8 years ago # -
The weird "are you too cowardly to show your face" comment on the EEN site apparently has been reported to the moderator (not by me) and is under review.
I understand the business owners' concerns, but if I had a shop there I would starting to get worried that this campaign is doing more harm than good. Working constructively with the council surely leads to better results than the overblown protest at such an early stage, and polarising, aggressive language is never good for business.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Anyone know how wide the lane behind Tesco is?
It's being suggested as a compromise route.
I don't see how it can be 2 way with any volume of traffic but would be good to have facts.
Thanks
Posted 8 years ago # -
The footpath behind Tesco Express is barely 3 metres wide, I estimate (even less with Tesco storing their stock trolleys there...):
Posted 8 years ago # -
On Streetview it doesn't look wide enough to be 2-way: not much wider than the pavement. If it went down that way then there is the problem of getting across Russell Road.
Who is suggesting it as a compromise? Paul Edie?
Posted 8 years ago # -
@Stickman - It's Paul Edie.
I know the path. It would be an uncomfortable squeeze for two cyclists. Also don't know how you would access it without widening the pavement considerably at that point.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@stickman. Yes - How did you guess?
He's also believes that the cycle path along Wester Coates is 'very wide' which he has been told is to 'allow overtaking' and so is suggesting a narrower cycle path and keeping the bus lane.
You can see he is trying to find workable compromise (after all we don't want any shop in Roseburn to go out of business and they don't have anything against cyclists...)
I think he thinks we are going to get a 4 lane super cycle highway. In reality a 2.5m wide cycle lane will allow for some overtaking when gaps allow but it's hardly excessively wide.
The Tesco alley is at least safer than the Haymarket tram tracks but hardly any more appealing and you'll then get some very tricky corners & crossing of pavements at either end and then how to you cross Russell Road in any sensible & safe way.
Posted 8 years ago # -
So Cllr Edie is envisaging:-
Cross Roseburn Terrace down Roseburn Gardens
Turn into Roseburn Place
Cross Roseburn Street to shared pavement
Another crossing (presumably controlled) on Russell Road
Down the alley way, kicking aside Tesco's racks
Then what - turn right to a crossing at Balbirnie Place? or thereabouts
And then along the A8 towards the city centre
The convoluted alternativePosted 8 years ago # -
I think one of Wilmington's rubbish bike facility videos showed the rubbish cycle lane thing at the corner of Russell Road, just in case anyone wanted to disabuse anyone of the notion that "there's already a cycle facility across from the wee alley beside Tesco".
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Alternative proposals
My alternative proposal would be to run the route along the south side of Wester Coates. There is space for a narrower two lane bikeway maintaining both bus lanes. I would then like to see this taken off at the alleyway behind Tescos and joined to the National cycle route on Russell Road.
If this were to have a raised table to direct the bikes across Russell Road and ideally signals introduced this would solve a lot of the problems with traffic in Russell Road and give priority for bikes at one stroke.
I think this is an elegant solution. It would remove all of the concerns about the viability of small shops there, shops that several thousand local residents rely on. Roseburn is a very densely populated part of the city and as someone who does not own as car I can tell you easy access to local shops is very important to them. It would also remove at a stroke much of the aggravation which will see the current proposals locked in a war of attrition during the statutory phase of any TRO process.
If this is for any reason not possible then again a narrower two way lane along the north could be considered again maintaining bus lanes in both directions and routed down Roseburn Street joining the route there. This would also alleviate much of the concerns raised by many residents and local businesses. "
Posted 8 years ago # -
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Alternative proposal"
How does this connect to Corstorphine Road? It sounds as if the path just ends at West Coates?
If people from Corstorphine are expected to cross the road into Roseburn Gardens and then around several corners to Tesco, then we have the problem again that people have to chose either the convoluted "quiet" route or the direct route along Roseburn Terrace where they battle it out with motor traffic.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@ Stephen
It would make some sense for cyclists coming through Roseburn Park but none at all for cyclists from Corstorphine.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"as someone who does not own as car I can tell you easy access to local shops is very important to them"
Yes, but I don't understand this in the context of the proposals. What exactly would make access to local shops for non-car users more difficult?
Posted 8 years ago # -
With the extra crossing at Roseburn Terrace/Roseburn Street it will be easier for non car drivers to get to the shops.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Yes, but I don't understand this in the context of the proposals. What exactly would make access to local shops for non-car users more difficult?"
Maybe even the opposite if pedestrian crossings (etc.) are improved...
Posted 8 years ago # -
Table 5.4: Kerb-segregated cycle lane widths
Two Way LaneDesirable Minimum Width 3.0m
Typically operates satisfactorily for two-way flows of up to 300 cycles per hour and will permit some overtaking.Absolute Minimum Width 2.0m
The minimum width that should be considered to permit cyclists travelling in opposite directions to pass each other. Operates satisfactorily for twoway flows of up to 200 cycles per hour.Posted 8 years ago # -
...and conflict with pedestrians both using the alley behind Tesco and as the cycle path crosses the pavement at either end.
An "elegant solution" that doesn't work for pedestrians or cyclists.
@stickman. Yes - How did you guess?
His reply to me said that this was his preferred route.
Posted 8 years ago # -
shops that several thousand local residents rely on.
Local residents will walk to these shops. Those with a car will drive to the Sainsburys at Gorgie or Craigleith or Tesco at Corstorphine.
If he's so concerned about the traffic flow and the bus lane which he views as "sacred" then why hasn't he been pushing for strict parking enforcement?
And Roseburn Place isn't a safe traffic free environment. If it was, then it wouldn't need a lollipop lady to get the kids to school.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Paul Edie's response also seems to think that narrows lanes are ok because West Coates will be part of the 20mph zone. As far as I'm aware this isn't the case and it remains 30mph.
He also seems to think that it will be a 4 lane cycle route.
His "compromise" solution will mean that the route would be far less attractive.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Would be very cautious about narrowing the bike lane. Experience from home (Nuremberg): many new paths were built in the 1990s in the context of the underground system, and some are a bit narrow. It wasn't realised at the time; they were more than enough for the level of cycling, and it was pre-internet so you didn't get any Dutch bloggers commenting immediately :-) They were brilliant.
Problem is, now, 20 years later, cycling levels have increased a lot also because these paths are direct and convenient, and on some busy corners you get bike-bike conflict every few minutes and regular collisions (nothing serious, I was rear-ended on my last holiday when I braked for an oncoming bike and the guy half a metre behind me didn't react quickly enough and then "Klonk" - "Oops sorry" - "No harm done, have a nice day").
They wish now they had built them wider in the first place; to widen existing segregated paths can be almost as difficult/expensive as building a new one, especially if the rest of the road is only 2 decades old and doesn't need any redesign.
Basically, if you spend a couple of millions, you want to build something that's still suitable in 2 or 3 decades, and if any of the "visions" for increased cycling even comes close, you have to plan for much higher numbers.
Posted 8 years ago # -
How important are the bus lanes on West Coates? Is maintaining both bus lanes just code for off peak parking?
I have posted to the facebook page of the one shop who I am a customer off on the list of publicly shamed shops asking why they are opposing it.
Posted 8 years ago # -
In my experience of bus travel, the buses get delayed at Roseburn Terrace because of cars parked in the inside lanes.
Going into town, most of the cars seem to turn right at Roseburn Street (probably to go to the WAR) so West Coates is actually fairly quiet. Buses don't seem to be held up here, and when cycling I've never seen a queue of traffic.
As it hits Haymarket Terrace then delays start again, simply because of cars parked outside Tesco etc, and then all the taxis lined up in the rank.
Similar story westbound.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"How important are the bus lanes on West Coates? Is maintaining both bus lanes just code for off peak parking?"
No, it's just code for illegal off peak parking.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Also, the cycling design team seem to be taking heed of best practice and design from elsewhere.
For Paul Edie to blunder in and say "this is my common sense solution" is a bit of a joke. Hopefully it's just him politicing so that he can say to the businesses "I made another suggestion but it was ignored".
Posted 8 years ago #
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