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"Boroughmuir campaigners say new site ‘too small’ "
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Posted 12 years ago #
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Critics insist the capacity of the new school, at 1165, would be too small, with the existing roll already standing at 1152.
So, how exactly is it too small?
And they claimed land allocated for the project is less than half of what is being envisaged to build a replacement for Portobello High School.
I'm sure the schools in Fife have acres of space: maybe the Merchiston Community Council would like to move there? No, thought not.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Crowriver, three points:
1. In Fife, like Portobello they are building on parkland.
2. Is there some reason that Boroughmuir should be built smaller than government guidelines per child?
3. By contrast, in Fountainbridge the council owns more land in the area, but is proposing to sell it to developers and thus build the school smaller than guidelines advise.
[declaration of interest: my kids are zoned for boroughmuir.]
Posted 12 years ago # -
"my kids are zoned for boroughmuir"
Note: CEC beware...
Posted 12 years ago # -
If it only takes 13 extra children to fill a school that size then it is definitely too small.
Posted 12 years ago # -
there are two slightly different aspects to the 'too small' :
1. the roll has no room for expansion despite the primary schools in the area all bursting at seams.
2. even at that size roll, it does not meet minimum standards for school size.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@SRD: the Council has its own ideas/guidance about what size schools ideally need to be:
"Optimum sizes are considered to be around 400 pupils for primary schools and 900 - 1200 pupils for secondary schools. " *
Clearly, Portobello is larger than 'optimum', Boroughmuir slightly smaller (but only by 48 pupils currently). But then Gillespie's is a mere catapult's throw away from the current Boroughmuir, with a similar size roll.
I read somewhere that the Council has a policy against increasing school roll sizes. Probably something to do with unused capacity at most schools (except Boroughmuir, Gillespie's and Royal High), class sizes, facilities requirements, having to employ more teachers, equity of provision across the city.
After all there are plenty of schools around Edinburgh which are not bursting at the seams. They just don't happen to be in Bruntsfield, Marchmont or Barnton.
It would be interesting to know how many pupils at Boroughmuir were from the catchment area, and how many from outside. Similarly those crowded primary schools. I know the Council did a study on this regarding Gillespie's (with a projection that the roll would have to be closed to non-catchment pupils from 2015 except for Gaelic medium pupils) which is publicly available, don't know if a similar study exists for Boroughmuir but I presume so.
Tricky one, but I imagine the Council is trying to stop less popular schools (ones that haven't been named Scottish secondary of the year, perhaps) from haemorrhaging more pupils as parents desperately try and get their kids into the popular ones. Arguably increasing the roll size at popular schools accelerates this tendency.
* - Children and Families Estate Review: Rationalisation
and Development Programme, Meeting of the Council, 23 August 2007Posted 12 years ago # -
Crowriver, I don't think you quite understand the 'size' point. It's not about optimal size of the roll, but about square metres per child. Boroughmuir as rebuilt will have substantially less space than it ought to have according to national guidance.
AFAIK, most of that will be taken away from sports space, rather than classroom space. I would have expected people on here with green party tendencies and concerned with active lifestyles to find this disappointing.
Yes, there are issues about non-catchment kids at Boroughmuir, which is one of the reasons that I for one have not made a lobbying issue out of this. although I did express my concern about the size in the original consultations.
Oh, and as to the primary schools jab, I'm pretty sure that none of the south edinburgh schools that I know - including craiglockhart, bruntsfield, south morningside and sciennes - have any out-of-catchment placements at primary one any more. How many parents move out of catchment subsequently, i can't tell you. But even in catchment kids were being refused places at South Morningside in recent years.
Posted 12 years ago # -
More info here: http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/newboroughmuir
and here http://www.boroughmuir.org/parent-council/new-school-sub-group-nssg/
Posted 12 years ago # -
Is it still planned to have 'sport' on the roof?
If so would seem to imply 'not enough' outdoor space.
Of course 'city centre land' is 'valuable'.
Though there seem to be a lot of empty newbuild flats nearby.
Land at Meadowbank was once so valuable that CEC was going to sell site.
Then the financial situation changed...
Posted 12 years ago # -
@SRD, I can't claim to be well informed about the plans for Boroughmuir, though I have been following the Portobello saga in some detail.
Sport on the roof? Why not? I think something similar was built recently in London, designed by superstar Zaha Hadid architects no less. Allan Murray might not be in quite the same league, but if it's a good design, why not?
"people on here with green party tendencies". I'm a member of the party, I don't mind anyone on here knowing that.
I would have thought that the great location next to the canal would make active travel to school a more viable option for quite a few pupils. Also are there not plans to try and keep some extra green space next to the school?
A quick dig on the net did reveal some snippets.
"Local community groups, individuals and pupils took part in the consultation with 86% of those who expressed a preference choosing the option to build a new school in this location. The other option, to refurbish and extend the existing building at Viewforth, was supported by 14% of those who expressed a preference.
Participants were asked to consider the educational merits of both options after the Fountainbridge site was bought by the Council from Lloyds Banking Group in December 2011. The Fountainbridge site is the Council’s preferred location for the school and it is expected that it will form part of the wider development of the canal side and an exciting new vision for the area."http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2012/06/boroughmuir-high-school-to-stay-in-fountainbridge/
I think many of us might be sceptical about CEC consultations given the ongoing Leith Walk saga, but 86% seems pretty decisive.
According to this from 2011:
"New School Site Plan
You will be interested to see the overall extent and location of the site on which the Council is bidding. It is highlighted in green on the attached plan. The areas referred to as Plot Q are already earmarked for Napier University and will not form part of the sale. The site has a total area of 11.5 hectares and is bisected by Viewforth and Gilmore Park. Should the Council be successful in acquiring the site and if it received a positive outcome from statutory consultation, then the site would be subject to other mixed use in addition to the school. It is envisaged that part of that use would include some green space / park provision adjoining the Napier plot."http://www.boroughmuir.org/new-school/site-plan-for-the-propsed-new-boroughmuir-high-school/
Maybe there isn't that much scope to make the school bigger due to site constraints? I'm sure you'll be able to correct any misapprehensions I may be under.
If they did manage to make it bigger, to fit the guidance, is there not a strong possibility that there would be pressure to increase the size of the school roll? After all, bigger school, cram more pupils in, yes?
(EDIT: Just saw SRD's links post. Must have been in the spam trap previously?)
Posted 12 years ago # -
"site constraints" - translates as they're giving the smaller portion of the site to the school and selling the larger portion to developers
active travel - yes. much lobbying/planning already going on with local green Councillor to actually make this work
86% - yes indeed; strong support. I was one of those. but I also noted in the consultation as did many others, that it seemed wrong to build a school that was smaller than government guidelines recommend.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Thanks for those links SRD. From them I've been able to establish that the Boroughmuir Parents had three demands:
1. The school roll be increased from 1150 to 1200 (Result: 1165 after a Green part amendment for discussion with Scot Gov about funding formula).
2. The park be moved to the canalside to allow expansion of the school building footprint, despite it being a condition of planning consent for existing student flats (I presume design options here are still "under discussion"/revision?)
3. The east side of Harrison Park be upgraded/utilised as a shared community sports facility, allowing school field sports to take place there instead of kids being bussed to Meggetland. (Presumably discussion with Harrison Parkers still ongoing?)
I'm assuming there has not been satisfactory progress on items 2 & 3 from the parents' perspective: hence stories in the papers about Scot Gov design guidance for square metres per pupil?
"site constraints" - translates as they're giving the smaller portion of the site to the school and selling the larger portion to developers
I was under the impression that CEC bought the site from a crisis-hit bank after the original developer went bust. Presumably the money for this land purchase has to come from Council capital budgets: maybe they hope to recoup some of those costs by selling some of the land?
In contrast, the new Gillespie's is being built on the same site (necessitating a decant); the new Porty High on public land (eventually, once the private members bill is passed in the Parly).
Posted 12 years ago # -
I don't think the 'boroughmuir parents' had any 'demands'. current and future parents and the wider community wereconsulted. the report you saw is the council's take on it and their response. the one set of parents feedback that I saw did not make any 'demands'.
The news story - from what I can tell - is based on responses from the two community councils in the area, who are supposed to represent all residents. Surely all part of the process?
Quite reasonably, the parents and others find it frustrating to be told 'there is limited room' when they are being given the smaller portion of the available land, especially when there are already many issues with underoccupancy in newbuild, and problems with student residences in the area.
Your take seems to be that we should take what we've been given and be grateful for it? Not a very participatory or engaged model of democracy. But perhaps that's what we deserve for the privilege of living in south Edinburgh?
Posted 12 years ago # -
I don't think the 'boroughmuir parents' had any 'demands'.
Granted, in the Parent Council* deputation to CEC they call them diplomatically "main areas of concern" which they would "like members to take into account". Then they present a list of three demands...
Your take seems to be that we should take what we've been given and be grateful for it? Not a very participatory or engaged model of democracy. But perhaps that's what we deserve for the privilege of living in south Edinburgh?
Is that what I said?
My "take" is that clearly (and legitimately, I might add) the Parent Council (and presumably the various Community Councils) are attempting to influence the design to suit their interests and concerns. Fair enough.
Is the school too small? I have no idea. All I do know is that it appears various folk with an interest in the outcome have called for an increase in the school roll, and are also saying the design for the school is too small.
I think I agree with Gavin Corbett's stated view which if I recall correctly was along the lines of it being possible to work out the space issues on the site as is. Which I take it implies not using an extra parcel of land from elsewhere in the site as you seem to suggest.
Oh and for the avoidance of doubt: I am a party member, but I do not hold any party office, nor sit on any committees, nor am I an elected representative. (Much as I would like to be more involved, the local branch meetings are on Thursdays, when almost invariably I am in Dundee). So it's fair to say that my views on any matter do not represent Green party policies nor positions.
* - Their logo reads "Boroughmuir Parents".
Posted 12 years ago # -
"
Education bosses are set to quadruple the number of primaries undergoing capacity-boosting revamps, and nine schools operating at or above capacity have been short-listed by city leaders for emergency investment as part a drive to deliver extra space in schools bursting at the seams."
Posted 12 years ago # -
When CEC keep allowing city factories and employment centres to be demolished to make way for 1000s of flats, of course the school rolls will be bursting.
Will we be left with a situation where Edinburgh is purely residential, and everyone drives their kids to an out-of-town school, then on to out-of-town employment (on the other side of town)???
Madness. Carmageddon here we come.
What is needed is a bit of joined up thinking and proper planning for this city.
Posted 12 years ago # -
I was at a recent meeting RE James Gillespie's primary school, which ran out of space some time ago.
At the meeting the Education dept produced graphs showing that the increased birth rate in the 2000's was resulting in a bump up in the number of children coming through the system. It's quite interesting actually, because if you view it over a number of decades, the school rolls tend to look like a sine wave. Anyway, the P1 rolls are forecast to keep rising for another few years to come. Eventually, those children will hit secondary school.
In Edinburgh, we were told by CEC, about one-third move off to the private sector for secondary education, the point being that the number moving to state secondary is highly predictable.
So the point is that the secondary schools are only just at the start of the the increase in volume. Sadly there's a huge disconnect in the education dept where the people who plan primary capacity do not appear to be on speaking terms with the people who plan secondary capacity. You can expect Boroughmuir to be over capacity before the doors even open.
Similarly Gillespie's secondary is being rebuilt to provide for the number of pupils it currently has, with zero allowance being made for the huge surge coming through the system from the primary school.
Idiots...
Posted 12 years ago # -
It's all a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance. Essentially though it boils down to parents wanting to send their kids to 'good' schools and avoid 'bad' ones.
If I recall correctly the upper limit on capacity at high schools is not just Council policy but also Scot Gov policy. It's worth bearing in mind that there are only a very few high schools which are at capacity, and also note this is due to out of catchment placement requests boosting the roll.
The private fee paying sector takes quite a number out of state high schools (though not the primaries, relatively few pay for a prep school). So 'bursting at the seams' primaries (again in actual fact very few are full before out of catchment placement requests fill them up*) do not translate to full up secondaries.
In the case of Gillespie's it will be full in 2015. This is partly due to the Gaelic medium education unit being housed there, which takes pupils from all across Edinburgh. Gaelic is undergoing a renaissance in Edinburgh (and Glasgow) at the moment: they are re-opening the primary on McDonald Road to house the boom in primary age kids taught in Gaelic. Naturally the GME unit at Gillespie's is also projected to expand. I note that the Council proposed at one point to move the Gaelic staff and pupils to the under capacity Tynecastle High, a move that has been vigorously resisted by parents! It would be interesting to see how much enthusiasm remains for GME at secondary level if the Gaelic unit does move out of Gillespie's, which would then no longer be full from catchment children. Currently a major incentive for parents to get their kids taught in Gaelic is a guaranteed place at Gillespie's...
If and when Gillespie's or Boroughmuir get to over capacity purely through catchment pupils, then rather than spending millions on extensions, the no cost option is to simply redraw catchment boundaries. The neighbouring Tynecastle, Firhill, Liberton, Drummond secondaries all have spare capacity. However that move is likely to be deeply unpopular with parents living on the outer edges of the respective catchments!
* - There's a handy map at the foot of this article. If you click on the marker icons, you can see even those primaries deemed as 'full' are not actually full...
Posted 12 years ago # -
In the case of JG primary though, and other Southside schools, they were overfull before they took out-of-catchment requests. It's only through the addition of portacabins in the playground that they have been able to accomodate the catchment children. The out-of-catchment placement requests simply top the class sizes up. If one considers cramped portacabins to be acceptable schooling infrastructure, then it all looks fine 'on the books'. On the ground however, it's a very different story.
A seldom-mentioned result of this is that 'common space' in the southside primary schools is woefully oversubscribed. The JG gymhall is about to be chopped by 50% (good luck playing ballgames and using climbing frames with an 8-foot-high ceiling, kids). Now, with the primary playground at Gillespie's given over to a building site for the secondary school, the primary kids are having their playtimes and lunchtimes at their desks.
The CEC excuse is that nothing can be done because the only weapon at their disposal is to adjust catchment areas. With creative thinking at that level, they're probably right.
I reckon they're just hoping the problem will go away.
Posted 12 years ago # -
@Snowy, no doubt you are correct re: Gillespie's primary, however from the map I cited above:
James Gillespie's Primary School
2013 Admission policy: All out of catchment placing requests are likely to be refused.
2011 school roll: 406
Estimated school roll in 2013: 413
Estimated school roll in 2020: 462
Maximum current capacity: 462Source: City of Edinburgh Council
Dunno if the portacabins make up the extra 49 free places, and of course these could be unevenly distributed by year group. That's a noticeable trend in our primary, where kids born in 2005 and younger have really big classes which are oversubscribed, and higher up the classes are much smaller. Seems to be a mix of demographics/population growth and folk moving elsewhere when kids get nearer to high school age (catchment hopping may be part of the latter).
The CEC excuse is that nothing can be done because the only weapon at their disposal is to adjust catchment areas. With creative thinking at that level, they're probably right.
There is still the issue of certain schools being popular and others less so... Extending popular schools and building new ones in popular areas is one answer (though a very expensive one), adjusting catchment areas to direct more pupils to less popular schools is another (costs nothing except political support from a minority of parents).
In any case only four primary schools out of ten in south west Edinburgh are "full" ie. not accepting out of catchment placing requests. Two of those are RC schools, the others are Gillespie's and Pentland. There will be specific issues at each school, but maybe talk of a general crisis is premature?
I reckon they're just hoping the problem will go away.
To some extent it will, as some of the kids will be 'going private' once they reach high school age. 25% Edinburgh wide, didn't realise it was 33% in the south of the city.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Dunno if the portacabins make up the extra 49 free places, and of course these could be unevenly distributed by year group. That's a noticeable trend in our primary, where kids born in 2005 and younger have really big classes which are oversubscribed, and higher up the classes are much smaller.
Undoubtably true; uneven distribution's a large part of it. If p6 and p7 have 20 pupils in each of 4 classrooms (just for example..I'm not sure what size they actually are) then you have dozens of 'spare' places instantly, while meanwhile p1-p5 classes could be at maximum size. Clunky example but it does illustrate the point.
At JG they are now talking about having to amalgamate P1 and P2 into mixed classes. Instinctively I don't feel this is a good thing, although we are assured that there is evidence that this works ok for the children. The evidence itself was not forthcoming (although I admit I haven't gone out to find it myself).
To some extent it will, as some of the kids will be 'going private' once they reach high school age. 25% Edinburgh wide, didn't realise it was 33% in the south of the city.
Unfortunately though, the 'private percentage' is already factored in and has been for years as it is quite predictable. It does vary widely by school though, as you say.
One potential solution at JG would have been for the primary and secondary education departments to speak to each other and have a couple of classrooms built into the new secondary which could accomodate the primary children initially and then transition to the secondary as the numbers surge moved through. The council response to this suggestion at the meeting was a confused explanation that they were only allowed to do certain things. Which presumably does not include something as complex as a primary school and a secondary school on the same site sharing a couple of rooms.
CEC recently missed an opportunity to purchase the Napier building at the top of Marchmont Crescent, which is about 150 yards from the JG campus, and which would have largely solved the problem for both JG and Sciennes at a stroke. Sold to become flats. The building's original purpose was ... Marchmont School. Ah, how we laughed...
Posted 12 years ago # -
Snowy - I was in a mixed class one year - 5/6 - it was great. I'm less sure about it at the P1/2 levels, since there is such a gap between confidence and ability at that point (especially for the younger kids). JG's by no means the only school considering this though. Bruntsfield has one too. there were going to be more, but they have instead kept 3 classes at both P1 and P2 levels. Who knows what happens when these cohort moved up though.
As you say the problem with aggregate numbers is that they suggest there is 'room' when in fact the P1s and 2s are overflowing, but there is room for placement requests to be met at the higher grades.
Crowriver's suggestion that we redefine catchments may work in some places, but in others we have over-crowded schools next to over-crowded schools, so not much to be done there.
Posted 12 years ago # -
When our office ran out of desk space they started converting meeting rooms into work space. They also use a shift system on desks in some areas.
We then ran out of meeting room space, so they put some tables and chairs in the back gardens and labelled them as meeting rooms.
True story.
Posted 12 years ago # -
There may yet be hope. From the article chdot posted above:
However, planners said the data suggested the rise in the number of births began to plateau after 2007, meaning the rate of increase in P1 numbers should also slow after this year.
Economic crisis puts paid to the baby boom? However I have also seen stats that Edinburgh's population is rising year on year due to inward migraton. Don't know how many of the newcomers plan to start families...
Of course there will be different trends in different parts of the city too. Stagnant housing market also means folk can't do the classic 'move to the suburbs when we have kids' thing so easily any more.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Another misleading Scotsman headline.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/high-school-car-park-design-criticised-1-2994311
It's not so much the design of the carpark that's being criticised, more the amount of parking. And it's more of an observation:
Cllr Corbett said:
"a lack of parking space meant an active travel plan would have to be developed to avoid cars spilling over into surrounding streets"The overall design of the school was criticised:
"
The Capital’s Green party said the new building is “uninspiring” and barely merits a C grade – but education bosses have hit back by giving the critics an A+ for “moaning and negativity”.
"'Moaning and Negativity'. Maybe that could be a new Standard Grade (er, do they still have them?)
Posted 12 years ago # -
Ewan has been in composite classes all the way from P1 and will be in a composite P6/7 class next year and the year after. In general small rural schools have composite classes without hurting anyone.
Depends on individuals, of course, but they seem to alternate between being living up to the older ones in the class and then, when they are the older ones, looking after the wee ones. But some of that might be how teachers familiar with handling mixed classes deal with it.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The design by the architectural practice that brought us those architectural gems; the Omni Centre and Missoni Hotel.
I think the Greens are on to something here.
Posted 12 years ago # -
The design by the architectural practice that brought us those architectural gems; the Omni Centre and Missoni Hotel.
Next to the studentopolis that they've built on the other half of the site, the new school (in fact, anything) is going to look like an architectural gem.
Posted 12 years ago # -
Plenty space in schools near James gillespies - Tollcross primary bags of room as Gaelic school has moved to bonnington. Tynecastle High has plenty room too. Redrawing catchments eg to suggest Polwarth and marchmont residents now have these schools as catchment would not be popular and lead to placing requests
When the council has spaces in the popular schools it cannot refuse placing requests in law so the popular schools always full. fife council has gone for massive secondaries. 1700 pupils in maybe five big high schools that are popular.only portobello in Edinburgh is anywhere near that. Several of the smaller newer schools are not owned by CEC.
working all of this out is not as straightforward as it may seem at first.
Composite classes limited to 25 and work well most of the time. Easier for the teacher if 50/50 split.
Posted 12 years ago #
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