CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Broomhouse Path - how to access / exit at Stenhouse Drive end

(61 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by threefromleith
  • Latest reply from threefromleith

123

  1. threefromleith
    Member

    Hi all,

    As suggested by The Buddster on Twitter, I'm putting this question up so that it can be discussed and possibly answered in more depth than 140 characters will allow.

    Since the Broomhouse Path has been remodelled during the tramworks, I'm unsure about how to safely and legally enter and exit it at the Stenhouse Drive end. The path just becomes a normal pavement (with the wonderful get-out-of-jail-free-card 'Cyclists Dismount' sign, so beloved of p*ss-poor cycling infrastructure designers). Your choices are to cut onto the road through the pedestrian crossing, jump off the kerb into the traffic flow or stop, dismount, walk past the ped crossing and get back on the bike again on the road (or the reverse of each if joining the path from the road).

    Why couldn't they design a proper entry & exit point for cyclists that doesn't attract the ire of pedestrians waiting to cross at the green man? Are we supposed to weave through them? Maybe there should be a drop-kerb that allows you to leave the path and enter the ASL feeder lane on the run up to the lights?

    So - anyone know the correct way to join the path? Or can we push CEC to revisit the design and get it right? After all, they've been working on this stretch for the last three years so you'd think they'd have had the time to come up with a decent design...

    Cheers

    Grant

    Posted 10 years ago #

  2. Nelly
    Member

    TFL,

    Hi grant, totally agree.

    I am just used to it by now - on way in I hop on at the first pedestrian crossing westbound (uberuce has correctly told me this is technically not the bike path, but it feels safer than jumping on past the junction).

    On way home, I shoulder check and jump on the road at the first pedestrian crossing eastbound (this is the one at the 'true' end of the path just past the new exit to the bridge.

    I reckon that Edin Trams think that as they have provided the path over the bridge and onward to Murrayfield that its job done?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  3. threefromleith
    Member

    That's what I've been doing, but it's not going to do my road wheels much good in the long run. Drop kerbs away from the lights would be a cheap and passable solution.

    And don't get me started on the lethality of those guttered rumblestrips when they're wet and you're on 700 x 23 wheels. So nearly came a cropper this morning when lightly braking whilst going over one. Brown shorts moment... Pointless infrastructure at great expense. It's not as though anyone knows what they're for anyway (cyclists or pedestrians).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Graham Budd (@TheBuddster)
    12/06/2013 21:17
    @threefromleith @CyclingEdin @SRDorman @Uberuce @nelly0168 @TheBicycleLobby also a Roads Officer is going on site to check some details.

    "

    Posted 10 years ago #

  5. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Or can we push CEC to revisit the design and get it right? After all, they've been working on this stretch for the last three years so you'd think they'd have had the time to come up with a decent design...

    "

    WELL

    Previous post seems to indicate that it's already working!!!!

    That IS a record.

    BUT

    'Official line' is that CEC won't modify anything until tram work FINISHED.

    We'll see...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  6. Uberuce
    Member

    Not just feels safer, Nelly; I don't see how it can't genuinely be safer to extend the shared-use section to the eastern crossing point.

    I've sat at the lights by Stenhouse Mains Street and mused on how stupid it is that I can't legally dismount and nip over to the pavement while protected by the lights. I'll understand if you think I should have put ironic quote marks on the word 'protected' - I'm sure you've seen as much RLJing from motorists as I. Instead, I wait for my green, then have to stand in the middle of east/west traffic for a gap. No-one wins from this.

    As it stands (I think) you can legally join the road heading east when there's a red, even at the pedestrian phase, because you've not crossed a stop line. It's actually way safer to do that, since the cars joining from Stenhouse Mains St are slower and geometrically incapable of clipping you. It does make you look like a scofflaw, and if I'm wrong about the legality, then I am actually being one.

    If the shared-use and dismount signs were swapped, which as I said on Twitter would take me five minutes if I had a stepladder and a spanner handy, the job's as done as its likely to get.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  7. threefromleith
    Member

    It'd be nice if they moved the set of junction boxes left in the middle of the cycle lane opposite Macro, or finished off the work on the path up near Ed Park Station, or replaced the rumblestrips up there that they've broken by repeatedly driving construction vehicles over them.... :-)

    So many things wrong with what used to be a decent stretch of cyclepath.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  8. Uberuce
    Member

    What is the legal position on those rumblestrips if someone falls and sues?

    I mean the pedestrian design with the ~50mm spacing and rounded profile, which are not meant to be on cycleways?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "So many things wrong with what used to be a decent stretch of cyclepath."

    Yep SO much wrong with all that.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=9318&page=3#post-108687

    Posted 10 years ago #

  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    AMusingly, the "official" way to enter it when approaching it from Stenhouse appears to be to turn left at the first lights onto Saughton Mains Street, then somehow do a U-turn, get off and find yourself on the pavement. You can then get back on your bike and ride across the second crossing (Which, if not a Toucan, definitely has blue signs indicating it's the route of the bike "lane".

    But yes, it's 100% impractical and there's no way to actually get on/off the thing "legally" without chancing it across traffic and some bunnyhopping.

    I've often thought that all it needs to "fix" this part of the route is a couple of feet of pavement widening on the Broomhouse Path side, past the bus stop and then connecting with the quiet route along Stenhouse Avenue West. As it is, there's a completely stupid and avoidable 100 metre gap in the route. There is MORE than enough road width here, currently two lanes in westbound direction and a single very wide lane in the eastbound.

    It's the same getting ON to the path if you've come down South Gyle Access from the Broadway - the only way on is to slow down and jink through the dropped kerb at the lights, not really a desirable manoeuvre.

    A good model for access would be similar to Bruntsfield Place access to Leamington Walk outside the computer shop at top of Leamington Terrace.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  11. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @threefromleith once the path is "complete" and the council adopts it, I'd be happy to join forces with you and produce a little shopping list of complaints (combined with photos) to illustrate all the faults with the path and suggest how they could be fairly easily rectified.

    Other regular users invited to contribute too.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  12. chdot
    Admin

    "and produce a little shopping list"

    That's a joke right?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    The "little" bit...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  14. Nelly
    Member

    I agree with kaputnik - once adopted I reckon we can get most issues knocked off quite easily.

    As for the boxes at Makro .........

    Posted 10 years ago #

  15. Uberuce
    Member

    You can bet your ability to perceive electromagnetic radiation in the 570-590 nanometre range that I'll be there for that photoshoot, Kappers.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. threefromleith
    Member

    Yep, me too!

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. TheBuddster
    Member

    Hi all,

    Thanks to Grant for posting this on here. The suggestion came from the fact that if we are asked something like this publicly I like to keep the response public too, as long as it does not involve releasing any sensitive person info.
    Disclaimer: Just to be clear on this I'm posting this up in response to an inquiry that we received. I'm interested in getting your thoughts on this and exploring how we can possibly look to resolve any issues BUT I'm not promising that we will redesign this junction. I want to be clear on that. It may be that we are currently unable to do much on this at this time due to a number of factors. Also this is not a method for by-passing normal Council processes. I'm keen to hear your thoughts and I will feed them into our processes.

    This is still in progress as the Roads Officer for that area is going to do a wee site visit today to check out a few points including the signals at this junction. I'll speak to the officer afterwards and will update any info which is pertinent to this discussion.

    I contacted an officer from Tram to ask them about the access to this cycle path. Their response was:

    "This cycleway was built as part of the Guided Busway Scheme. As part of the Tram Project there have been some recent changes to this cycleway providing new connections to rail crossing points.

    As you proceed eastwards along this cycleway it ends at the west end of the junction with Saughton Mains Street, where it narrows, and there is a drop crossing which allows cyclists to rejoin the carriageway. This drop crossing is within the Traffic Signal junction so cyclists should only cycle on to the road when there is a green light for eastbound traffic and when they consider that it is safe to do so.

    As part of the Tram Scheme it is proposed that an additional drop crossing will be installed to the west of this Traffic Signal junction which would allow cyclists to access the existing advisory cycle lane that leads into the Advanced Cycle Reservoir."

    In terms of accessing the path from Stenhouse Dr legally it would appear that the way to do this would be by treating it as a right turn or by using the crossing on foot.

    As I said this is an answer in progress as the Roads Officer is going to visit today. If you have suggestions, I see that you do already, on this then I'm more than happy to speak to the relevant officers and respond.

    Thanks,
    Graham

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. SRD
    Moderator

    Thanks Graham. Is it just me, or does this not seem to fit with Scottish Government Designing Streets principles which advocates that priority should run Pedestrians>Cyclists>Public Transport>Other motorised traffic ?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. kaputnik
    Moderator

    In terms of accessing the path from Stenhouse Dr legally it would appear that the way to do this would be by treating it as a right turn or by using the crossing on foot.

    I noticed this morning that the crossing ACROSS the main road towards Saughton Mains Street is Toucan, but none of the other crossings are, and once you arrive on the other side you aren't on shared use pavement.

    I think how this is "meant" to operate is a figment of the designers imagination.

    The only dropped kerbs there are for the pedestrian crossings - which are nearly impossible to use at any sort of speed to get onto the road, because you are having to jink through the pillars for the traffic lights. That is not an acceptable way to enter what is normally fast moving traffic, even if the Trams folks think it is. There is almost no part of the phase were you can stop, get off your bike, place it on the road, then get back on in any safety, unless there's an unusually huge gap in the traffic.

    Also, if you use the dropped kerb when the Toucan crossing is at green, you are entering a junction where there is another (non-toucan)_crossing on the other side that will also be at green, although you will be passed the red light that stops traffic for it, so you are being directed to cycle through a crossing which you should be stopped for.

    It fails on all accounts.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. chdot
    Admin

    "Is it just me, or does this not seem to fit with Scottish Government ... principles"

    Must be just you...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. Blueth
    Member

    Helicopter bicycle Problem solved.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. Nelly
    Member

    Buddster - very useful to get the Roads chappie out there.

    What would be really useful is to get him/her to cycle the route from Edinburgh Park to Stenhouse - and back - to see exactly what we mean.

    Its not a moan for moaning sake - I actually like the Broomie path, but it needs some 'stuff' done - and the best way to understand the issues is to actually experience them.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. Uberuce
    Member

    As part of the Tram Scheme it is proposed that an additional drop crossing will be installed to the west of this Traffic Signal junction which would allow cyclists to access the existing advisory cycle lane that leads into the Advanced Cycle Reservoir

    The problem is that the access point is west of the junction. Just extend the shared-use to the east crossing. For the third time: I'll do it for them.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. allebong
    Member

    Every time I ride the Broomhouse path I wonder why they didn't just run the tramlines right through the road junctions instead of building expensive bridges. I mean if it's good enough for us lowly cyclists why not the trams?

    On the plus side at least the Edinburgh Park end is less of a disaster zone by now.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. TheBuddster
    Member

    Hi ladies and gents. Sorry I haven't been back to you sooner. I didn't get a chance to catch the officer who went on site until today due to work and him having Friday off.

    From speaking with the officer they've said that currently there isn't a huge amount that we can do with this stretch especially as the path itself isn't maintained by us. However, once TRAM have finished work in the area we would in all likelihood adopt it, after some negotiation on budgets for maintenance. At this point what we would look to do would be to examine this entire section with the Council's Cycling Officers.

    At that point we'd welcome your "shopping list" which we could then use in conjunction with the investigation our team and the Cycling Officers would undertake.

    I know this isn't the best answer in the world and would far rather be able to say "we can do X, Y and Z and improve the situation in the next X weeks". However from speaking to the officers it would be far better to wait the few months until TRAM have finished the section and do some real improvements rather than spend money just now on small amendments which wouldn't really have much impact.

    Uberuce: I spoke to the officer about your suggestion. There are a couple of small issues with it around pedestrian access at the other east crossing point with the path and stairs, which also meet the path near this point. Also this section of the path changing to include cycles, although short, would require a legal order for its change of use. This would take time to process. Whereas if we wait until the entire section is adopted we can take a step back and review all the options as a whole.

    I'm more than happy to look at other suggestions people have on this issue but I think the recommendation to wait for a short period, although frustrating for users, is ultimately the best way to improve this section.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. custard
    Member

    Making a really nice job of fixing the road
    silky smooth
    makes the path seem ever rougher and poorly designed
    what is it with those new signs?
    Do they realise its generally the peds on the bike side?
    I counted 7 peds on the bike side from 12 peds total today

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. S P
    Member

    so how do you guys get into this cycle path from stenhouse drive just now? cycle along the pavements from stenhouse avenue west?!! or use the cycle crossing from saughton mains st?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. threefromleith
    Member

    Swing off the road and onto the path at the crossing. Easy when there's no traffic coming the other way - hell if there is! Coming home, I drop off the kerb just before the lights to get back onto the road as trying to get back on using the crossing when the lights are green is tricky (as there are pedestrians waiting there and you can't just bowl them out of the way!).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. threefromleith
    Member

    Improvements - get rid of those 'cattle grid' tactile slabs. They're lethally slippery for road wheels when they're wet.

    Stones and rubble dropping down from the side of the bridge build-up onto the path - put up some kind of fencing / edging to stop it.

    Finish off the cycle-crossing onto the fenced-off path up by the station! Why has this been left when all other crossings have been completed?

    Sweep up the stones, grit and other detritus spread onto the path by construction vehicles crossing it.

    Junction boxes / open pavement work / cones / cables blocking the path at the corner of the bridge opposite Macro - how long are they going to be left there? get rid of them too.

    Broken utility / drain covers on the cyclepath - replace them as they make for a very bumpy/dodgy ride!

    Not that I want much... ;-)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. Rosie
    Member

    Glad it's not just me who is freaked out by those vertical tactile strips. I thought I was just being neurotic. I cross to the ped path to go across the horizontal strips - at least they don't make me feel as if I'm sliding in a concrete tram track.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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