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A rant on BBs!

(33 posts)
  • Started 11 years ago by custard
  • Latest reply from wingpig
  • This topic is not resolved

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  1. custard
    Member

    So I have slowly returned to commuting on the Boardman Hybrid
    Its been creaking and needing some TLC
    So I stripped it down to investigate
    replaced the SPDs,fitted new bearings to the headset & removed the BB.
    BB is goosed. stiff and running rough. Sitting unloved for 18 months has done it no good.

    So I had a dig around and found a near new Truvativ splined BB thats the right size
    fits the fame but not the splines on the cranks
    turns out it has FSA powerdrive splines which are unique.
    It also appears FSA has dropped this design and BBs are slim on the ground. looking at £28+ for a basic BB!
    Of course replacing the BB now would leave me open to the same problem later with regards to parts available.

    So Im skint and looking at having to shell (no pun) out on a relatively expensive BB or looking at replacement cranks/BB

    most annoying!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  2. kaputnik
    Moderator

    A wise man once told me that about 10-15 years ago, the Industry reached a point almost of basic standardisation and settled on a few common standard measurements for things. And then they realised they could make a lot more money by giving things fancy names and unique, bespoke designs and diameters and threading and whatnots and it's largely headed in that direction since.

    I now have 2 bikes with "standard" 68mm bottom brackets, one with a BB30, one with a SRAM GXP and one with a Shimano Octalink. The last 3 all require their own special type of cranks to go with them. When the Octalink goes I'll probably be in a similar position as I think it was a short-lived thing that's now been superseded and abandoned. The GXP is a joy to install, single Allen key (wrench) and it tightens itself up all lovely - complete opposite of the Shimano Hollowtech ones. But I've read the bearings are a non standard type and generally wear out quickly and are a pain to replace.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  3. allebong
    Member

    You've become yet another victim of not-so-good design choices by the bike manufacturers....I'll be glad to see the back of proprietary splined systems as will many others.

    Splined BBs have always been a compromise too far in my mind. The diameter of the BB shell is obviously fixed and has to accommodate both the axle and the bearings. Good old square taper has a fairly small axle but massive bearings which is why the things last tens of thousands of miles. Plus they're mass produced and cost very little to replace when they do finally go. Thing is that thin axle is nowhere near tough enough for serious off road use. Riding square taper hard off road is extremely disconcerting due to the masses of flex and it eventually shears right off. So, an obvious 'solution' is to make the axle thicker. Works wonders for stiffness but now the bearings are reduced to a tiny space between the shell and axle. Result: The lifetime has reduced exponentially, even for smooth use, never find the battering and filth of off road. I'm not joking when I say I've seen brand new splined BBs disintegrate after a week of modest use. As to why they end up on hybrids presumably not meant for hard use we can only guess.

    And of course, it wasn't enough to have one splined system, everyone had to get in on the act. ISIS was the most standardised and was if I recall created as an open alternative to Octalink. There's also powerspline, various truvativ offerings (holzfeller, hussefelt) and god knows how many others out there. And as you discovered, now that those systems are obsolete and mostly out of production, that you're left dead in the water when they pack in.

    They're obsolete because even the manufacturers gave up trying to make remotely long lasting splined systems (I had one with 4 seperate bearings in it, still didn't last) and moved on to external cup types with the bearings outside the BB. I remember getting the first generation of Shimanos Saint external cranks back when I had a dirt-jump bike and they were a revelation. Massively stiff since the axle was the size of the BB shell and they actually lasted since the bearings were huge as well. They've now evolved and trickled down to the point where even quite low end road bikes and mtbs even now have them as standard. Problem solved - stiff, long lasting and reasonably cheap. So what's next for cranks? Oh yes, the BB30 press fit system, another solution in search of a problem.

    Anyway, I would advise you to either upgrade to a modern external bearing system - expensive, but the best performance - or downgrade slightly to square taper. If I were you I wouldn't bother trying to keep the splined system going - it'll just keep causing more pain. Cheap option is to check out what the bike station has - have picked up a square taper crankset and BB for under a tenner there and then transfer the chainrings across.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  4. wee folding bike
    Member

    There are at least two slightly different standards on square BB axles/spindles. It can be a good idea to stick with the same manufacturer for cranks and BB.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  5. allebong
    Member

    http://sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

    Aye two different major standards (Japanese and ISO) but they are usually interchangeable without problems as long as you keep an eye on the chainline.

    I've noticed that the availability of square taper BBs seems to vary too. A few years back I got an RPM make square taper new for £4. They seem to have dried up and now the cheapest option is usually the Shimano UN54 or thereabouts. Get's more complicated if you want one of the less common spindle widths too. Bikestation has had a real shortage of BBs recently as well.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  6. wee folding bike
    Member

    Dales fitted a Japanese BB to one of my Campag bikes and after that the cranks were always a bit loose on Campag BBs.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  7. TractorFactory
    Member

    I went through this exact same issue. Asked Halfords (different topic me'thinks) for a replacement thinking, och aye, they sell the bike, should know the part. They gave me a Truvativ, completely wrong spline. Took it back, replaced with an ISIS spline, got the cranks off, the FSA one in thinner spline but with the ISIS pattern.

    Was passing Leslie Bike Shop up in Glenrothes, picking up a Facebook share prize I'd won from them and lo and behold, they had the exact part for sale. They seemed to have plenty stock of them as well if that helps.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  8. DaveC
    Member

    This is concerning me:

    "Riding square taper hard off road is extremely disconcerting due to the masses of flex and it eventually shears right off.

    I have a CX bike, I have changed the BB and Chainset for a Stronglight Impact and Stronglight BB. After my recent broken carbon forks (cracked and broke over a long time) I had better leave hacking through the Dalmeny estate to my MTB.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  9. allebong
    Member

    @Dave it depends on where your reference point is for 'hard off road'. I learned to dirt jump and freeride on a bike with square taper and while it didn't immediately implode I didn't waste much time in upgrading to external bearing cranks and noting the enormous increase in stiffness. The flex feels much like underinflated tires but you can feel your feet sinking lower than the bb and twisting outwards as the arms bend. You usually end up knackering the bearings before breaking anything else as the system just isn't meant to take repeated harsh hits. You can get away with it for light cross country use where you spend most of the time on the saddle though.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  10. DaveC
    Member

    Light off road surfaces?? Have you seen my most recent thread?

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10609

    Posted 11 years ago #
  11. custard
    Member

    Right,I'm revisiting this
    I'm using the bike less as the BB does my head in
    meaning I use the car,which costs money meaning I have less money for bike parts!

    soooooooooooooo
    I'm looking at going from internal to external BB and going for a new chainset/BB
    theres hardly any power drive BBS out there. those that have them are around £30. I have seen a couple of chainsets for sale from the Boardmans(used) so Im guessing others are doing the same

    So Im guessing its best to stick with compact 50/34 as fitted now?
    have swithered on getting a new(!) Tiagra double or the like at around £55
    Then a BB at around £15
    then getting the frame faced at £?
    and idea on cost for this?

    anything else I need to key in?

    Posted 11 years ago #
  12. custard
    Member

    Another thought
    Will i have front mech issues with running a 10 speed crank with the rest being 9 speed?
    The front mech is a microshift at present
    I would prefer to buy 10 speed. I would be looknig to change to 10 speed as funds allow and stuff wears out

    Posted 11 years ago #
  13. Dave
    Member

    Ten speed one will work fine. Then again, if you buy a nine speed one for less money it will also run a 10 speed chain (the teeth are the same width). It's only important at the cassette where things are closer together.

    New cassette, chain and shifter = more speeds will work. The mechs don't care either.

    Not sure that you'd need to get the frame faced again, unless you're repainting it. I've built three bikes now without the frames being faced at all, and they're all just fine (seem just fine, at least).

    That said, dare say Bicycle Works will do a good job for not too much ££

    Posted 11 years ago #
  14. custard
    Member

    had a look around
    Can get the Tiagra double in compact and a 105 BB for £60.72 delivered @ Ribble
    The 105 is only £1.50 more than the base/Tiagra BB

    sound good?

    TBW quote £8 to £12 to face off the bare frame

    Posted 11 years ago #
  15. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I would get the frame faced. My manuals all recommend it for external bearings. I'm getting a replacement Octalink* BB soon. The current one is double-clicking after nine years. Paul at Ace Bikes thinks he can get the seized Dura Ace drive-side crank off by heating it. Has anyone tried heating a crank to remove it? Chance of goosing the aluminium frame?

    *Not the best now but it keeps the retro look of the rest of the bike.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  16. Cyclops
    Member

    "Has anyone tried heating a crank to remove it? Chance of goosing the aluminium frame?"

    As long as you watch where your pointing the blowtorch you'll be fine. Are you keeping the crank? You're never 100% sure when you're pulling the crank off whether it'll come unstuck or the threads in the crank will strip first.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  17. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I wasn't expecting the crank to survive. I've found Ultegra replacements. If they could be saved it would be a bonus though - those hand welded DA cranks are quite cool.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  18. Cyclops
    Member

    The other option, of course, is just cut the crank off. No danger of any damage to the frame doing it that way.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  19. custard
    Member

    I'm back! :o

    been pondering this
    is is a smarter move to replace the chain & cassette while im doing this?
    Im looking at the Ribble prices with over £35 discount
    So i can get a 10 speed cassete,chain,Tiagra chainset & 105 BB for £93.08 delivered
    Howeverr would i be better sticking with 9 speed on the rear just now to retain full spread of the gear ratios until I do/if I go 10 speed on the shifters
    just thinking with my luck I'll fit the chainset and it will be skipping all over the shop with the chain/cassete wear

    obviously I'll be trying EBC etc for a price match/better

    Posted 11 years ago #
  20. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    cyclops: "The other option, of course, is just cut the crank off. No danger of any damage to the frame doing it that way."

    That's exactly what Bicycleworks said a few years ago when I wanted to get a compact chainset fitted. Know anyone who could do that ? :)

    Posted 11 years ago #
  21. amir
    Member

    Last time this happened to me, I took my bike to Bicycle Repair Man.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  22. Cyclops
    Member

    "So i can get a 10 speed cassete,chain,Tiagra chainset & 105 BB for £93.08 delivered
    Howeverr would i be better sticking with 9 speed on the rear just now to retain full spread of the gear ratios until I do/if I go 10 speed on the shifters"

    A 10 speed cassette won't work with 9 speed shifters as the spacing is different.

    Posted 11 years ago #
  23. custard
    Member

    These BBS do my head in
    remembered i had a used external BB from a frame I bought a while back
    checked it and its a Truvativ one,which of course isnt compatible with Hollowtech 2!

    Posted 11 years ago #
  24. custard
    Member

    Thanks for the info Cyclops
    think I'll go with the chainset & BB and see what its like.
    Worst case I have to wait/source a chain/block

    Posted 11 years ago #
  25. custard
    Member

    ordered the BB and cranks
    (hard to believe!) but Halfords have a 105 chain for £15.99 if I need one
    So if it skips I'll try a chain & then cassette as the last to try

    Posted 11 years ago #
  26. custard
    Member

    All fitted
    £8 @ The Bike Work to face the frame and fit the BB
    Havent had a chance to take it out. So will see if it skips tomorrow under load

    Special mention to Ribble
    I had a quick look in the box but didnt open it
    today I got another deliver as they must have forgotten the end cap for the non drive crank
    That courier must have wiped out their profit on the order

    Posted 11 years ago #
  27. custard
    Member

    Well looks like I got away with it
    a quick run and no jumping or skipping
    the front mech is rubbing a bit,So Im guessing the chainline is a wee bit different
    Seemed a bit of resistance.I'll dial back the torque on the crank cap a bit and see if its that or simply stiction from being new

    Posted 11 years ago #
  28. custard
    Member

    Have to say
    The Tiagra chainset gives lovely shifting
    better than the FSA Vero it replaced by a long way

    Posted 11 years ago #
  29. CocoShepherd
    Member

    Thread resurrection. Not a BB rant, more looking for BB advice.

    I've been fixing up an old MTB but sadly I discovered a terminal problem and she will have to be laid to rest.

    Naturally I'm now on the verge of buying a second hand mountain bike to replace it. Will be used for winter commuting and for summer use on easy trails with the kids or for a bit of bikepacking.

    The only 'problem' with the potential new bike is that I think it has a press fit bottom bracket. It's got a Shimano Deore groupset if that helps. Anyway, I just wanted to know are press fit bottom brackets as bad as I've read? Is it destined to creak? And if so, is that fixable?

    Posted 4 years ago #
  30. acsimpson
    Member

    This must be the week for thread resurrections. I've been running a BB30 bottom bracket for a little over 30Mm. After around 9 years it's nearing the end of it's life but other than a little tapping noise now and again it's been generally fine.

    I have the replacement's ready to go but so far haven't found the time to hit the existing ones hard enough to get them out the frame.

    Posted 4 years ago #

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