CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Sustrans' plans for city centre bus routes
(59 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Oh, Oh, Oh! That image on slide 5. That! That's what we wan't / need! Just imagine...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Like.
Presumably this has been presented to the Cooncil? Any response?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Apparently no-one gets the bus between the southside and the west of the city :-/
Posted 11 years ago # -
I've heard mixed replies from various council people. Not sure they have considered it thoroughly. My sense - amalgamating several different responses - is that they can see the logic, but think it is too radical.
The basic premise of the design is that Edinburgh has gotten too big to do without interchanges, and too big for users to assume single mode transport.
Some councillors presume that constituents - especialy older, more vocal ones - would find change hard to accept. Would not cope with idea of having to shift from bus to tram to access princes street. Others point out that in London etc that is just the norm.
Other issue is that this design presumes some but not all busses on princes street. But council can't do that. They could ban all non-tram traffic (maybe) but they can't say 'only 10 busses an hour' or only the number 22. Even if they were able to get agreement to restrict Lothian buses, other companies could apparently then just ramp up their numbers.
But we have also heard that it is physically impossible for busses and trams to run on princes street in proposed numbers. So something must be done.
Posted 11 years ago # -
This is really good - nice work SUSTRANS. Pity it won't happen - too radical for the Council.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@rj I've long thought that one of edinburgh's most positive things was the through busses, but now they are so slow as to be almost useless. I've reluctantly concluded that sustrans - and ithers, including Jim Orr - are correct to suggest that the current system is becoming unworkable.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Great but alas will not happen anytime soon.
Posted 11 years ago # -
SRD - The Council do have legal means to control the buses, via a Bus Quality Contract (see Transport (Scotland) Act 2001). Very, very unlikely to even consider using this power though, and it would need Ministerial approval.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"correct to suggest that the current system is becoming unworkable"
I'm not nitpicking (but!)
The current system works if it's acceptable to take 20 minutes to traverse the whole of Princes Street. Hard to say how much more 'workable' the current situation is than the various times when Princes Street was shut.
The future problem/opportunity is entirely due to the tram.
For the time being I will completely ignore bicycles and where they should (be allowed/encouraged to) go.
As I have said before, the original 'masterplan' was that only trams would be allowed on Princes Street. The idea was that people would 'interchange' at Haymarket and the East End (somewhere). This more or less evaporated when 'people' said 'they' wouldn't do that.
All buses could easily be banned from Princes Street - which has been proposed.
I assume Morningsider is right when he says 'some could be banned but'...
Obviously I'm 'shocked' that the trams are almost about to start running and there is no clear idea how this will/might work. (ThisIsEdinburgh)
Presumably there are meetings going on (all the time??) with CEC and LB working out how to 'process' the number of PEOPLE who want to go to/from/through the city centre. Of course it would be nice if some of them had a proper alternative route avoiding the CC - the South Sub springs to mind (but!!!)
Looking at PEOPLE - including the ones who can't walk far and the ones who still use their own cars should be part of all this.
Of course any serious consideration of the various conundra should include ways of ENCOURAGING more people on bikes - because it would mean less stress on the public transport system.
I'm sure Sustrans is thinking about this - less sure about councillors and staff at CEC and LB.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Obviously I'm 'shocked' that the trams are almost about to start running and there is no clear idea how this will/might work. "
+1
Posted 11 years ago # -
"20 mins to traverse Princes street"
Well, when it takes 1.5 hours to get across town, then I think it is pretty unworkable. But maybe I'm impatient.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Any other city that has (re)introduced a tram has used it as an opportunity to redesign the city centre for the better. The tram procurement has been a colossal balls up, but it would be an even bigger waste if the reintroduction happened and nothing else changed in Edinburgh.
Yes, people fear change but once it happens they tend to adapt. And the more the council can encourage them to adapt towards active transport, the more physically mobile citizens will become and maybe, just maybe, they'll be able to both envisage and manage walking more than a block to get to the next bus stop.
Posted 11 years ago # -
.... the original 'masterplan' was that only trams would be allowed on Princes Street. The idea was that people would 'interchange' at Haymarket and the East End (somewhere). This more or less evaporated when 'people' said 'they' wouldn't do that.
If they did this, then people would just adapt, as others have said. They just have to make one ticket which will be valid on busses and trams, like the Oyster card in London?? (Shortly to be corerected if I'm wrong) so people can transfer. Cost is always the biggest hurdle, so if you could board a bus, pay one fair, and then transit from bus to tram to bus with no more payment, then passengers would just get on with it. They'd winge at the start, but properly run, the tram cross town would be faster without busses in the way.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well, when it takes 1.5 hours to get across town
In summer of 2nd year at Uni (so, 2002 I think?) I worked for Scottish Power in Puerto Bello but stayed with the folks in Corstorphine. Could get a #26 directly there, no changes, one fare. Great!
However it regularly took an hour + to get from C to P, worse in other direction, to the point I used to get off bus outside Waverley, walk length of Princes Street and then get back on in Shandwick place, as it cut 1/2 hour off my commute.
I can only imagine it's a lot worse as LB didn't quite have it's "rolling-carpet" of busses approach to services at that time.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yes. Oyster card like approach is one thing EVERYONE agrees is needed. But council claims difficult/impossible to do becaus of Thatcherite reforms.
Posted 11 years ago # -
But council claims difficult/impossible to do becaus of Thatcherite reforms.
Scottish Government / Transport Scotland are trialling some sort of ITSO-compliant smartcard on ScotRail, so would make sense to use that. Lothian Buses and the trams joining the scheme would be within the gift of the Council and, I would say, it's essential to offer transfers between the two, so they should be on board.
First and others should be invited to take part for their buses, and you'd have thought it would be in their interests to join. If they didn't want to, well, screw them, frankly.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Thatcherite reforms? I don't understand. Suppose Thatcherite reforms don't affect London?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Suppose Thatcherite reforms don't affect London?
Yeah - bus deregulation didn't hit London. London has a good bus service. Funny that.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Saltire Card I think.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Thatcherite reforms" what's her fault now?
;-)Posted 11 years ago # -
Suppose Thatcherite reforms don't affect London?
Yeah - bus deregulation didn't hit London. London has a good bus service. Funny that.
What I seem to recall happening is that in London the buses were still regulated (by London Transport as then was) but areas/services were put out to tender and run by private companies. A bit like rail privatisation in fact. Maybe it still runs like that, but I think they abandoned it.
Anyway the difference being there was a strategic transport authority overseeing everything (like SPT in Glasgow/West of Scotland). Lothian Regional Council (as was) kept the buses in public ownership here as a counterbalance to the chaos and decimation of services inherent to deregulation.
Posted 11 years ago # -
""Thatcherite reforms" what's her fault now?
;-)2What's not her fault?
Posted 11 years ago # -
The best thing would be to take the buses off Princes Street all together and use some of the freed up space for a high quality cycle lane.
Posted 11 years ago # -
London buses are let out as concessions rather than franchises, meaning TFL spec every aspect of the service leaving the private operator to deal with day to day business of managing driver rosters and the fleet. The only sign one bus is different from another is usually a small logo by the door.
I couldn't support severing routes over the city centre until Lothian pull their finger out over ticketing. Oyster is a fantastic system and Lothian's season ticket only ridacard is one of the only areas they fail in. The daily caps on spending, cash wallet system and auto top up on Oyster mean you 1) never pay more than you need to and 2) never need to choose between singles or day tickets. This is essential if tens of routes are going to be broken up in to multi change journeys.
Posted 11 years ago # -
'Tramjam' - the predictable Evil News headline for a predictable event?. The single track road/tramway east of Waverley Bridge looks like a potential bottleneck...
I'm no expert on these things but I would say a better ticketing system is needed now to keep stopping time to a minimum.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Yeah - bus deregulation didn't hit London. London has a good bus service. Funny that"
And Edinburgh doesn't? If I'm not using the bike I use the bus to get up town - I find it cheap, reliable, and firmly better than that on offer in most cities.
Perhaps not London, but its not really a fair comparison.
Its all about opinions, I guess.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Isn't the council the majority shareholder in Lothian Buses, or is my info out of date? And if they are, and therefore essentially run the company, they could implement an oyster-equivalent tomorrow if they wanted to.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Think council more minority share holder in the buses
Posted 11 years ago # -
Used to be CEC 91%.
E, M, W 3% each.
Changed?
Always been something of a mystery about CEC 'influence' - see all fuss over boss' pay and bonus.
Posted 11 years ago #
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