Interesting article for them that's following the fantastic Vuelta climax
http://inrng.com/2013/09/vuelta-chris-horner-performance-age/
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Sport
The Problem With Chris Horner
(37 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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I cannot help but wonder how he is dong tht as 41?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Its a strange one - it was a sky rider a lot of people would say it's sky's marginal gains thing along with the fact he hasn't raced much recently, but its hard to see past who he's raced with in the past
Posted 11 years ago # -
Only one problem? So many levels!
Posted 11 years ago # -
There is no problem.
Posted 11 years ago # -
L'Angliru today... highlight of the calendar.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The first of the clean generation to go back to drugs should win. the guy looks very fit. At some point in their 30s most people engaged in any aerobic sport notice a diminution in their physical capabilities., chris Horner has not had this? He has also emerged suddenly from relative obscurity.
Also to get baldist (our hairs are our antennae with which we pick up messages from other planets - Danny in withnail and I), he looks fine with the hat on. When he takes it off, he looks as old as me.
Leaves me feeling a sense of dread. The winner chris Horner - mildly enthusiastic applause everyone going we want you to be clean but we just can't believe it?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Its a strange one - it was a sky rider a lot of people would say it's sky's marginal gains
We're seeing strange things in cycling. Someone winning a GT at Horner's age is a strange thing. A former 4km world champion winning a GT in his 30s is also a strange thing.
It could be "this is what happens when cycling is clean". Could be something else.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I don't think his age is necessarily the problem. If he were a sprinter then yes, but cycling in an endurance sport. He has a few decades of endurance training behind them that younger riders don't. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the reason younger people dominate in endurance sport is that after a while, people just don't want to do it any more. Their enthusiasm at 30 for getting up at 5.30am to train has waned by 40. Simple as that.
I speak as someone who had their ass kicked by both the male and female over 60 entrants at last years Speyside Ultramarathon. And there is no way I could have even considered doing one of those aged 20, or even 25. Maybe not even 30. The fastest ultra runners tend to be in their 40s or 30s and ultrarunning seems to me to be the closest comparison to cycling I can think of since it often involves covering huge distances day after day.
Doesn't mean he isn't doping of course but as for winning races aged 41, I say why not?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I tend to stick to the immediate kneejerk view
While Nibali was in red - great to see Horner reeling it back in with his high tempo climbing
But as soon as Horner is in red - well, he must be a doper, and Nibali's fading only goes to show he must be riding clean on bread and water now
Which is all bollocks of course, but there's no mistaking this is entertainment of the highest quality
Best grand tour by far
Posted 11 years ago # -
he looks fine with the hat on. When he takes it off, he looks as old as me
with the hat off, he kind of resembles the great Michael Rasmussen... the chicken himself
so that there's the empirical proof, innit...
Posted 11 years ago # -
He has a few decades of endurance training behind them that younger riders don't.
That's the thing, folk are saying he doesn't have as much miles in his legs as other pros both this year and over the course of this careeer. due to injury this season, he had 6 weeks off i think and he spent a few years racing in american in his mid-20s.
he's definitely an outlier in so many ways it's not easy to say one way or another. I'm usually fairly sceptical about performances like this but he's not failed any doping tests and his power outage is apparently not abnormal. I think its a case of him hitting form when so many other contenders are tired after a long season. That said, wouldn't be shocked if his blood was tested in a few years time and came up with something unusual.
There was a good podcast about him as well as a lot of obree chat (and interview) on the Humans Invent podcast last week. it's tied into Sharp and Garmin and well worth a listen
Posted 11 years ago # -
That's the thing, folk are saying he doesn't have as much miles in his legs as other pros both this year and over the course of this careeer. due to injury this season, he had 6 weeks off i think and he spent a few years racing in american in his mid-20s.
A few weeks off is nothing, especially when you have said decades behind you. It is 6 weeks of rest that his competitors didn't have. I don't know what "racing in american" is but your mid 20s is a long time ago when you are 41. If he'd spent those few years on the sofa he would still have another 15 to catch up.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Whether he is doping today I really don't know, but if you look at his team history, it is more than suspicious.
I remember back to the 2010 TdF, Armstrong crashes badly on that roundabout. Horner is the man tasked with looking after Armstrong in that tour. His performance then looked akin to Froome looking after Wiggins last year. He was clearly the much stronger man, and I reckon (just my view, there is no way of really telling) if he had been given licence he would have won the 2010 TdF.
He also won the Tour of Calafornia in 2010, on one of the climbs he won (can't remember exact stage) his VO2 max was the highest EVER recorded in a stage race! He undoubtedly is a phenomenal athlete, but he has also undoubtedly had 'help' over the years.
EDIT: He won in 2011, 4th in 2010.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I am coming more and more to the conclusion that the reason younger people dominate in endurance sport is that after a while, people just don't want to do it any more.
In audax/randonneuring the exact opposite is true. Yes some people get tired of it (maybe I will one day, but not yet). The number of older riders is impressive to behold at calendar events (or a bit sad, depending on your attitude to age).
Posted 11 years ago # -
I meant elite sport. Neither audax or ultras are Olympic sports. People still train hard of course (if they want to) but to their own tune and not to a coaching team/sponsors. I find training for ultras very relaxing in comparison to national level rowing. International level must really be something else.
Posted 11 years ago # -
(Mind the gap..)
Or in other words, my point exactly. Older people excel at endurance sports. No reason why they can't still excel after the age of 40. Look at Sir Steve Redgrave (who now relaxes by running marathons..)
If Usain Bolt was still winning at 41 I'd be very suspicious!
Posted 11 years ago # -
Vinokourov 39 on Monday. He won Olympic gold at 38 but mostly because cancellera fell off.
10000m runners move up to marathons when they lose their sprint finish. With GT cycling you smash along at a high speed, helped by team and hope you have enough left in your legs to sprint to finish. Then next day you get up and do the same again.
Exceptional to do this at age 41. Actually exceptional to do this age 41 even with drug assist. So maybe the races are mostly clean these days?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Well that was some stage !
Posted 11 years ago # -
It was a great stage with everyone cracking except Horner. Valverde gets left but then catches the breakaways. I was going to say he would have won it but for that chunk of lost time at the start, due to mechanical/ puncture but I think I might be confusing my tours.
Excellent display of tactics with Astana putting men forward in the break to try to help nibali later on and katusha pushing the pace,
I felt coverage fairly lukewarm on Horner win. Also nibali saying he did all he could, which I take as reference to him staying clean. Mountain top ends to stages are great. Great tour, question mark over the winner, as some also questioned Froome. That is how it is going to be. With Horner being over 40 the question marks are a bit more in bold type?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Just been reading the Wikipedia entry on Vinokourov. He manages Astana. Well known doper. Quite a character. Nibali press after the giro tending to suggest not doping. Or if doping, keeping it real. I fear Horner not keeping it real. The way he turned to camera to tell us we were witnessing history was reminiscent of Lance himself
Posted 11 years ago # -
There are no question marks against the winner, Horner has won fair and square. Nibali fought like a lion yesterday - his own words - but his tactics were rubbish. He should have had his team on the front to bring back the break then in the last k he could have launched one do or die effort for the time bonifications on the line.
Not sure what you mean about lukewarm coverage, Kirby and Kelly were both effusive in their praise of the whole race and yesterday in particular. Perhaps you are watching the wrong channel ? Yesterday besides the live coverage on Eurosport - excellent, as always - I also watched the ITV highlights to see how Jensie got on with what I believe was is tv debut. Jensie was obviously nervous but spoke well, but as for Ligget's live commentary I have to say it was as dull as ditchwater.Posted 11 years ago # -
Yeah, Ligget has such a dull studious thing going on.
I creased myself listening to the Eurosport commentary last year, when Harmon said: "its all kicking off big time now! ...and that's something you won't hear on ITV4"
Posted 11 years ago # -
each to their own. Big question marks against the winner. You cannot win a GT aged 41. is my opinion, without questions being asked and they were asked at the end of ITV4 prog and Jens Voigt failed to convince me. People want good news stories but less disappointed if cynical. I think it was a great race and loved watching it. Still query the winner. But I hear the badger and the cannibal are now considering comebacks.
I am not saying he is doping, I am just saying it is perfectly acceptable given his age and lack of podium finishes when younger to ask How is he doing that?
Iff Horner brought out a book - how can a 40 something out perform 20 something and 30 somethings? I would buy it. except if the answer was doping.
Posted 11 years ago # -
little doubt in my mind that horner had prepared.
the question for me is just how much - was he cancelling out the age difference, or maxed out for the big career-end payday.
i suspect the latter.
the tragedy is that its still a fantastic achievement, but it belongs elsewhere, in its own class - there should be a separate event for juiced-up senior pros to battle it out like veteran gladiators
Posted 11 years ago # -
@ o-0. Had a kind of Floyd Landis feel about it?
In Robin of Sherwood, Sean Connery's ageing Robin comes back from crusades but times have moved on and the opposition much tougher. He gets a good few doings and is definitely on the way out. Has final duel with Robert shaw, gets chris Horner in as adviser, sticks the cold steel up him saving the kingdom but dying in the process.
he is then lying on his death bed in the castle and his not so merry men gather around. He calls for his bow and quiver. in a weakening voice he whispers to Chris Horner, open the window Chris, he says wheresoever this arrow lands there shall ye bury me. Chris says OK. Robin pulls back his bow and with his last gasp fires the arrow and dies.
so they bury him on top of the wardrobe
Posted 11 years ago # -
Had a kind of Floyd Landis feel about it?
Aye. Bypass of the expected tired but overjoyed elation response and straight to the clumsy historic speech. Didn't really ring true.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Cynics and killjoys.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I felt joy once. It was awful.
Posted 11 years ago # -
You couldn't make it up!
Horner misses test within hours of finishing Vuelta...
Posted 11 years ago #
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