CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
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Paul.Mag - I think that angle is the entire point of the jug-handle. It allows the cyclists to cross the tracks at a safer angle.
Yesterday it was so wet and busy that I really felt I couln't safely cross the tracks in the main carriageway. So I kept left (on the main road, not the jug-handle)and rode up to the red and white barrier, paused and crossed the tracks when the road was clear. Obviously this only works if the taxis don't sddenly get a green light or go through on red.
"The jughandle is a dead end IMO - it seems to take a couple of minutes to go green, which means nobody in their right mind will use it more than once."
It would be easy for people to say that cycolists just need to be patient, but when you're out in the elements, and reaching and maintaining momentum is at your own effort.... Plus, 2 minutes is half a mile on that stretch!
It undoubtedly gives a better angle of attack for the tram lines, and in theory is a good idea. But the long lights sequence, plus the taxi rank, mean it's really rather bizarre.
@paul.mag - I did wonder from the videos about those barriers. Presume they'll disappear eventually, but at the moment they also narrow things down even further.
"
"Nice to see that the pavement between Ryries and Haymarket has been made wider though."
But not the bit that matters!
"
I'm pretty sure that the old pavement was about half the width of that.
"Presume they'll disappear eventually"
Yes, when the trams run.
In the meantime they are there to stop people (esp cyclists?) 'getting into the habit' of going through tramstop.
Might be safer - esp if going down Haymarket Yards.
@Coxy, yeah I assume that the angle is deliberate but I just wonder about the space available to me as I emerge from the handle onto the road and then correct my course to continue straight.
@W.C I guess they'll vanish soon enough, I just like to know my route inside out so I can anticipate where the likely attempts on my life from road users and pedestrians are likely to occur. Haymarket has just overtaken the roundabouts at Drumbrae & Gogarburn and the A8.
The jughandle is a dead end IMO - it seems to take a couple of minutes to go green, which means nobody in their right mind will use it more than once.
Indeed. Unless there's some sort of prioritisation, it won't be used, even if it is safer than trying to cross at 10 degrees.
Going by the sweep of the tram tracks, the only way I can see of sorting this to ensure that cyclists aren't exposed to excessive risk of rail catch/slip followed by motorvehicle interface is full segregation. You'd need to lose a westbound traffic lane, but there you go...
"You'd need to lose a westbound traffic lane, but there you go..."
Indeed
The next section is problematic too.
Doesn't 'seem' as wide as in this photo -
I suppose busses going down the tram stop a no-no, because that would easily allow you to lose a lane.
"why not make that literally true by setting up one lane and a giant cycle (+tram) lane?"
like a Giant Taxi drop off point!? as if them filling up the Jug (handle) isn't bad enough?
Off topic, I wonder if there is a CityTaxiingEdinburgh where we can whine to them direct?
Y'know, rather than whine to the taxis, I wonder if it's worth some sort of attampet at a mutually beneficial joint complaint to the council. The taxi rank is too short, way too short, and yes at the omment that means taxis stringing back into the carriageway, but once the trams are running that's much more difficult, which means there will only be space for a few taxis (and train passengers will therefore also get the short end of the stick).
"I wonder if it's worth some sort of attampet at a mutually beneficial joint complaint to the council."
Yep
They don't always get on too well with the council, so could make interesting/useful allies.
They certainly can't be happy with size of Haymarket rank (or layout).
Presume it's 'free for all' - unlike Waverley.
There are two or three groups of taxis for getting business (includes owner drivers) and I think a federation too.
+ 2 for the cycle lane idea. It only leads to the bus stops in any case so traffic will have to filter right whenever a bus us there. I also like the idea of being able to use the team stop. After all going down Haymarket Yards means you have to cross the tracks yet again as you turn left.
Taxis would surely welcome segregated infrastructure for cycles as that would mean they stop being held up by slower cyclists, plus it should reduce their stress levels a bit (I assume the majority do not aim to near miss/hit cyclists).
Wow. That's an abysmal piece of road. Would be very interesting in the rain and dark at commuting time. I don't think it's hyperbole to suggest someone may, sooner rather than later, come a serious cropper.
Roughly 75% of taxis breaking the law, either by stopping on double yellow, protruding out into the road, or turning right out of the rank (is a right turn 'into' the rank when coming from the west also not permitted? If so then the percentage rises).
The protrusion was causing trouble for the motorised traffic as well as they all had to move into one lane earlier than they'd planned, and there was more than one honk in annoyance.
I had a useful chat a few weeks ago with the head of the taxi organization. he's a nice guy. might be worth engaging with him.
his argument re ranks is that it's better to have longer ranks than taxis cruising around blocking up roads and emitting fumes. which is pretty sound.
"is a right turn 'into' the rank when coming from the west also not permitted?"
If there isn't a no-right turn sign then I don't see why it would be.
I must have done a few right hand turns into it in the car, back in the day when there was a separate drop off zone. (I think it was configured with two lanes, the left being the taxi pick up lane and the right hand lane being for taxi/car drop offs).
Maybe just stand on the corner of the "jughandle" with an air horn, honking it at any offending taxis until they get bored and move?
Not only are the protruding taxis a danger in that they force cyclists out of lane and across the tramlines, they also force other vehicles to do the same, and if you're successfuly managed to cycle into the outside lane you might find a bus or car suddenly trying to barge you out as it goes around a taxi.
"If there isn't a no-right turn sign then I don't see why it would be"
That's kinda why I asked, I didn't look to see if there was a sign, so would be good if someone has noticed, or has on a photo or video evidence of its existence or otherwise. And with the tramworks there's certainly no guarantee that what used to be allowed still is; and what wasn't once allowed now is!
"his argument re ranks is that it's better to have longer ranks than taxis cruising around blocking up roads and emitting fumes. which is pretty sound."
I think that's absolutely right. Any name or contact details you can pass on SRD?
Agree 100% with teaming up and would be great to attempt to change things for the better with a group we've collectively not always had great experiences with, partly as a result of conflict-inducing infrastructure.
I fail to see how a truly consultative consultation could have resulted in such an unfit for purpose piece of infrastructure on so many different counts.
"When the system was designed some years back the designs were consulted on" and any sensible elements of feedback were duly ignored whilst we pressed on with the most death-inducing ideas we could think up
Lesley Hinds: WTAF?
My suggestion: manage taxi movements at Haymarket with a barrier system (a bit like at the airport).
- Only allow entry to authorized vehicles (taxis) who would have a key card or contactless entry system.
- Barriers should be designed to allow bikes to pass on the right-hand side. Paint an obvious cycle lane down this right hand side (see later).
- Exit barrier would only raise if 'safe' (see later)
- Entry and exit barriers would allow number of taxis currently at the rank to be known, and hence presented on an illuminated sign at a 'feeder' rank a short distance away on a wider street (e.g. Morrison Link?). Result: no taxis cruising around, and never more taxis at Hym than the rank will accommodate; therefore nothing blocking the cycle lane within the jug-handle.
- Rigorously enforce 'no stopping' on the left-hand (tram) lane of the main road, and make this lane tram-only alongside the jug-handle. Exit barrier for taxis would only raise when no tram imminent. Bikes would be able to go round barrier so could avoid turning at the same time as taxis.
I realise there are probably various issues with this (and cost would obviously be a factor), but it does attempt to address problems for both bikes and taxis, so maybe could be refined into something vaguely workable?
"and cost would obviously be a factor"
Given previous history with planning and implementation of the tram network, perhaps the taxi rank was originally going to span the length of Haymarket to Donaldson's College?
There isn't a no right turn sign on the TRO drawings.
I've sent a message (thanks for the details SRD) suggesting some sort of weird coalition between the cyclists and taxi drivers of Edinburgh to put pressure on for changes at Haymarket. At the very least the strange allegiance could get some EEN column inches.
@ chdot
"BI office - 31 Queensferry Street - so presumably Princes Street. "
No, it is actually Queensferry Street. To the immediate left of Pizza Express.
Yes - but I meant nearest tram lines.
I've still to put my full experience of riding this shocking piece of road design in print (video issues), but the one time I've ridden it's probably the single worst bit of "transport integration" I've ever seen.
For one, it's one of the main routes out of Edinburgh as well as being "the airport road", so by its very nature it tends to be busy, full of first-time users of the route, and people in a hurry. So what do they do? Give cyclists the option of a) mixing it up with taxis who are infamous for having their own set of road rules (as we're seeing here already), and having to wait at an extra set of lights compared to the cars or b) staying in the traffic but being forced to not only cross the tracks at too shallow and angle, but changing lanes in the process - two things in conflict then. You either want to cross lines close to 90 degrees or you want to change lanes gradually, not sharply.
When I came off Morrison Street towards Haymarket, I didn't even know there was a cycle lane through the taxi rank! Why should I? - there had never been one there before and it's counter-intuitive to think there would be one. So I continued on the main road only to be confronted by a barrier diagonally across my path and having to quickly think what I was going to have to do to be safe, knowing there were vehicles closing from behind. That's not a nice feeling at the best of times, but especially in the rain with tram tracks to be crossed.
And that situation is going to happen daily because there will always be people (whether motorists, cyclists or both) going along there for the first time. Ironically, it might be slightly safer when the trams are running because presumably the tram stop will then be available (if not actually legal) as an emergency run-off area if a cyclist has to make a snap decision to avoid a potentially fatal incident. But my god, even thinking that might have to be an acceptable option is scary.
When I used to commute through the city centre, this was my route to the Roseburn path and now I feel like I'll be trying to avoid it altogether, at least when I'm on slick and/or narrow tyres. Cycle Friendly Edinburgh? My *****!
@ chdot
"Yes - but I meant nearest tram lines. "
Ah, I see what you meant now :-)
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