I've got a question which has been prompted by this blog - last week cycling home there were about a dozen cyclists heading the same way on Portobello Rd towards the sea. Quite a few of us ended up bunched in the ASL. This is such a rare occurrence that I had no idea what the "rules" were. I'm quite quick off the mark, so positioned myself to the right of a couple of others, and got ahead of them fairly quickly.
Beyond the obvious (don't cut people up) what are your views on the best way to deal with a bike jam? Hopefully any advice will be more relevant when we have a 20% modal share...
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Questions/Support/Help
Commuting etiquette
(87 posts)- Started 11 years ago by twq
- Latest reply from Instography
- This topic is
not a support question
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Posted 11 years ago #
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Don't go up the inside left of someone by using the gutter. They may wish to turn left but not to be in the gutterzone, and so may cut across you as they move off.
Go up the right if you want to pass someone, but not if you want to turn left!
If in doubt, sit behind them.
Don't assume that rider infront of you will take off quite as quickly as you do, or not suffer a chain or shoeclipping moment that temporarily delays them pull away from the lights.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Patiently and politely. Think about all the things you hate when drivers do them to you and don't do them to other cyclists.
This occasionally happens to me when I have to work in Manchester. If I get to a stop line behind another cyclist I stay behind them and let them go first. Even if that means I might have to wait for a suitable space to overtake once we have both proceeded through the junction.
It's just common decency and if more road users applied it we'd all be a lot safer.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Stay at the back and out to the right, to a: protect any wobblers/not-look-ers from traffic behind and b: not get stuck behind someone who looks fast and dresses fast but then spends ten seconds getting their feet into place before crawling away.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I always queue behind any cyclists that have stopped - I really dislike it when people come up on the right or position thmselves right in front of me (often ahead of a white line). If you are quicker then you can normally easily pass when traffic gets moving.
Also, it's difficult to know who is going to be quicker. I quite often find myself sitting behind an impatient roadie on my clunking MTB based commuter bike - despite their best efforts to shake me off - always very amusing.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I always queue behind any cyclists that have stopped - I really dislike it when people come up on the right or position thmselves right in front of me (often ahead of a white line). If you are quicker then you can normally easily pass when traffic gets moving."
This be my approach too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The original bikeyface drawings are cool. Kaps advice most sage.
I don't think we have the same shoaling issues in Edinburgh as London.
You can be at the front of the box and squeezed left and right but who cares? All quite civil normally.
Posted 11 years ago # -
There is not enough space in ASLs for everyone to queue up one behind the other like motorists. I go up alongside other cyclists, though usually a couple of inches further back unless I can't avoid going in front to keep myself safe. Some people do wait right at the back, or even just stay in the bike lane and don't even get into the ASL. Being alongside makes it easier to have a conversation too.
Posted 11 years ago # -
It's funny this was posted today as I had an incident this morning in the ASL opposite the King's on Gilmore Place.
The lights were red for traffic leaving Gilmore Place and as I arrived at the ASL there was one cyclist ahead of me positioned at the front centre of the box. I rolled up behind him and and was positioned about one foot both to the rear of his back wheel and to the right. My intention was to pull away with him and if he was incredibly slow off the mark I could nip past him. I also made sure not to be situated too far right in the ASL so that I didn't get hit by a bus turning into Gilmore Place.
As we're both sitting there a woman on a bike pull up to my left hand side and dismounts as if she is going to push her bike across the junction when the lights turn to a green man. However, at that set of lights the sequence for the green man comes after the sequence for traffic leaving Gilmore Place. The filter left turns green and then some seconds later the main green turns on for us to go and as it does the woman tries to push her bike between the man in front and myself almost forcing me further right into what would have been oncoming traffic. I closed the gap and shouted at her to keep back so she instead proceeded to cross straight across into the oncoming traffic coming out of Tarvit Street at which point I presume she 'salmoned' her way up the one way street.
Honestly, what are some people like?
Multiple cyclists at ASLs do my head in. Is it too hard to just stay in the order you arrive and then adjust your position once you've got going?
In reply to Min:
There is not enough space in ASLs for everyone to queue up one behind the other like motorists.In that case I'd stay in the queue of traffic the same way I would if a car was stuck in the ASL having missed a green light (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt). There's nothing saying that cyclists have to pile into the ASL.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"I really dislike it when people come up on the right or position thmselves right in front of me (often ahead of a white line)."
Agreed. Especially when you've just overtaken them.Posted 11 years ago # -
n that case I'd stay in the queue of traffic the same way I would if a car was stuck in the ASL having missed a green light (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt). There's nothing saying that cyclists have to pile into the ASL.
So what do you do when you arrive at an ASL and find another cyclist or a motorist in it? Turn round and ride back to the end of the queue of cars?
Posted 11 years ago # -
My colleage just informed me that "95% of cyclists go through red lights".
So ASLs should never be over-capacity because only 1 in 20 cyclists will be using them.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I have no objection to a cyclist stopping to the right of me in the ASL. What I dislike is kerb huggers slipping in to the left of me (especially when I want to turn left - can't keep my arm indicating all the time).
Posted 11 years ago # -
So what do you do when you arrive at an ASL and find another cyclist or a motorist in it? Turn round and ride back to the end of the queue of cars?
You don't just arrive though do you? You you have to make your way there and you can see what traffic is there before making that move. If the traffic is moving as I approach then I position myself in the primary position in the flow of traffic, from there I can ascertain if it's worth trying to advance to the ASL once the traffic has come to a halt. If I come to a halt so far back from the ASL that I can't see what is there I'll just wait.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Morningsider: "I really dislike it when people come up on the right or position thmselves right in front of me"
I think that's called "shoaling" and is frowned upon.
Posted 11 years ago # -
It all must depend a little on the circumstance.
When I don't have many cars in front, I tend not to filter to the ASL.
If filter looks unsafe or inconvenient (narrow road, parked cars etc), I tend not to filter to the ASL.
However, if the queue is long and filtering seems safe (e.g. Salisbury Road), I will go to the front. Most of the time I can't see whether there is a cyclist there already. Anyway I still can't see the difficulty in having cyclists side-by-side in the ASL
Posted 11 years ago # -
Most of the time I can't see whether there is a cyclist there already.
Me neither. Or a car.
Anyway I still can't see the difficulty in having cyclists side-by-side in the ASL
Me neither.
Goodness knows what people will be like if we really do get Dutch levels of cycling and people even have to cycle alongside each other and everything. Folk will have to lose their inherent hatred of seeing other cyclists near them or start driving!
Posted 11 years ago # -
It will be:
"I remember the days when I didn't see another cyclist for days - lovely. Just me and the cars."
Posted 11 years ago # -
Yeah, but positioning right in front of someone is a little presumptuous, rude and insulting... To the right depends on circumnstances (and certainly I think it's correct that generally you don't know for certain that the ASL is clear, so if someone arrives, and waiting to the left or behind isn't safe, then waiting to the right would be fine - though what I generally do is, if it's clear within a car or two from the front of the queue that I won'ty easily fit into the ASL I'll aim for a gap, if there is one, in the traffic).
In the main any use of an ASL, and recations to anyone within it, whether they be there before or after you get there, can be covered by the mantra of 'Be excellent to each other'. But I still reserve the right to get annoyed with someone deliberately positioning to the front when not necessary and then setting off really slowly and wobbly, and I'll continue to merely sit where safe, wait for 20 yards or so till I can determine how safe and fast my fellow cyclists are, and then move around them as may be required (giving more space to those who look novicey, and doing all I can to look nonchalant to go past those who may have positioned to the front and not had the performance to match that positioning).
"Goodness knows what people will be like if we really do get Dutch levels of cycling and people even have to cycle alongside each other and everything"
I'm anti-social, have posted before, I like getting into winter and having fewer cyclists around. I like having the space to myself.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Just to clarify, personally I don't have a problem with people coming up alongside me either. Overtaking and stopping right in front of someone though feels like jumping the queue. But it is called shoaling.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I'm not sure people are bothered about other cyclists being in the ASL per se. It's just more than a tad frustrating when you've passed someone just moments earlier and they join you in the ASL and position themselves ahead of you. It's just bad manners. I've not a problem if someone takes a position beside me, just don't try and force your way ahead as if it's some sort of drag race. Let those there before you leave before you. Simple.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"when you've passed someone just moments earlier and they join you in the ASL and position themselves ahead of you"
That's just stupidly.
There are some stupid people out there...
Posted 11 years ago # -
@ianfieldhouse There's nothing saying that cyclists have to pile into the ASL.
Although it may be safer to fill the ASZ box completely than to be caught in a single file line up the inside of motorists (or "left-hooks-waiting-to-happen" as they are also known).
Although those that don't wish to have the ASZ fill up may also be an advocate of the school of thought that says "if I can see the ASZ is clear, I don't need it, and if I can't, I shouldn't use it".
I admit I'm in the "ASL and feeder lanes are not your friends" camp, but for exactly that reason, I'd prefer it if folk joined me in a bunch in the box instead of risking their safety by queuing outside the box...
We're cyclists, we can make eye contact and anticipate each others movements just as pedestrians do - who queues in single file to cross a road on foot? And what harm does that do? I may get balked when on foot by a crowd of tourists, but I can just slip past at the next available opportunity...
If you want everyone else to get out of your way, as they're impeding your important progress, you may need to reconsider your choice of transportation mode. Might I interest in you in a premium German marque?
;-)
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Roibeard If you want everyone else to get out of your way, as they're impeding your important progress…
Eh? Where did I say that? I said was it's rude to force your way ahead of someone waiting and that if I come to a halt so far back from the ASL that I can't see what is there I'll just wait. Hardly the mark of someone in a rush.
Posted 11 years ago # -
This has got confusing. I think a few people have agreed with this:-
I really dislike it when people come up on the right or position thmselves right in front of me
When they only actually agree with this:-
I really dislike it when people position thmselves right in front of me
And I agree that's a bit rude.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I didn't realise this was such a carefully-nuanced social minefield. If someone else was in the ASL box, I'd just stop alongside them and try to avoid crashing into them when I set off - the same way I try to avoid crashing into them at other times.
Now, as we're on the subject of etiquette - who knows when it's appropriate to use a bouillon spoon or address a retired bishop?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Glad to see people running with this. I tend to always be patient when on the bike, I realise we'll probably all catch up at the next set of lights.
@AKen all this talk of passing to the left and bishops (of Norwich?) is making me thirsty. Port anyone?
Posted 11 years ago # -
@Roibeard If you want everyone else to get out of your way, as they're impeding your important progress…
Sorry Ian, I started off from your comment, and ended up with a more general point.
I should have said "If one wants everyone..." as that bit wasn't aimed at you (or anyone apart from the strawman in the corner!).
Sorry for the offense,
Robert
Posted 11 years ago # -
Definitely still don't see this as a big deal. If someone wants to push in front of you in an ASZ I think that is a little deal. My route does not have so much shoaling. The dalry road box before Haymarket is a possible shoal catcher, but I don't roll that way no more. My route has people who push past you but you can catch them at the next junction, just a few. On the whole fairly civilised cycling in edinburgh
Posted 11 years ago # -
I thought ASLs were mainly for turning right or avoiding left turning traffic when you're going straight on? So you'd want to go in the box according to where you're going. If I saw another cyclist in an ASL here, after I'd picked myself up off the floor in surprise, I'd probably go up and have a chat and then position myself according to where I wanted to go - to their right if turning right, to their left if turning left, slightly behind if going straight on. Obviously, I'd never try and get in front of them, because that's just queue barging, but I wouldn't avoid the chance of getting in front of the cars if I was turning right just to avoid crowding a fellow cyclist.
Posted 11 years ago #
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