Though a photo, not being a moving image, doesn't show that a vehicle entered a cycle reservoir illegally (I can't see the pic, so can't comment on the exact nature, but if it's just a police car stopped in a reservoir then the point stands - obviously you may have seen it move in there illegally, a photo alone wouldn't show that).
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » General Edinburgh
Police Crackdown - New EEN article
(175 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
-
I suppose they may well argue that the lights changed as they were entering the ASZ, and hence not technically illegal....
Posted 11 years ago # -
[Smug mode]
I'm sorry, but they are going to need two independent witnesses to verify that they entered the ASL legally otherwise nothing can be done to stop them getting a fine and three points..
[/Smug mode]
(if only..)
Posted 11 years ago # -
'I suppose they may well argue that the lights changed as they were entering the ASZ, and hence not technically illegal.... '
More reason why the law should be changed so its similar to a yellow hashed box.
Highway Code Rule 174 states in regard to Yellow Hatched boxes:
'You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.'
A similar wording could be adopted and amended:
'You MUST NOT enter the Advanced Stop Line box until your exit road or lane is clear. At signalled junctions you MUST NOT enter the Advanced Stop Line box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.'
Posted 11 years ago # -
Dear L&B Police[s],sorry Police Scotland no sign of this campaign in the far west (Corstorphine/Drumbrae/Clermiston)if you head west along the A8 to St Johns Road it is amazingly easy to spot bus lane dodgers, mobile phone users all in cars, deeply astonishing. However to stand a chance of catching this particular species camouflage is essential.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"[Smug mode]
I'm sorry, but they are going to need two independent witnesses to verify that they entered the ASL legally otherwise nothing can be done to stop them getting a fine and three points..
[/Smug mode]
(if only..)"
So you're advocating we completely turn the criminal process on it's head and rather than presumed innocent until proven guilty that people are presumed guilty until proven innocent? It's radical, I'll give you that ;)
Posted 11 years ago # -
"More reason why the law should be changed so its similar to a yellow hashed box/"
How on earth would this work in practice? Every motorised vehicle going across a junction with an ASL would have to stop behind the first stop line, wait for the car ahead to completely clear the junction, then go... You can very very very easily get caught in the ASL. Very aesily.
Posted 11 years ago # -
So you're advocating we completely turn the criminal process on it's head
I just thought it would a nice revenge on the police who always quote this to victims of road rage or dangerous driving (unless they are drivers themselves) No need to get your LLB in a twist. :-P
Posted 11 years ago # -
@ Min
I saw what you did there ;-)
@ Wilmington's Cow
""More reason why the law should be changed so its similar to a yellow hashed box/"
How on earth would this work in practice? Every motorised vehicle going across a junction with an ASL would have to stop behind the first stop line, wait for the car ahead to completely clear the junction, then go..."
It would work (or fail) in exactly the same way it works (or fails) with the yellow hashed boxes as stated: Light goes green, first car moves off across junction, car 2 proceeds to ASL (Line not box) at the same time; Car 2 moves off across junction, car 3 proceeds to ASL at the same time; car 3... and so on. All it takes is compliance and patience.
Ah.....
Posted 11 years ago # -
[long post deleted]Posted 11 years ago # -
"
Clarification of Legislation - Advanced Stop boxPublished 22 November 2013
Advanced Stop Lines at JunctionsClarification of Legislation
It has become apparent that there is some mis-understanding with regards to the ‘Advanced Stop Lines’ located at some traffic light controlled junctions in the force area. This has been brought to light by recent cycling initiative in Edinburgh along with queries from members of the public.
For any junction, that has an Advanced Stop Line for cyclists, the stop line applicable to all other vehicles is the first stop line i.e. the first line the vehicle comes to as it approaches the junction during normal driving.
Regulation 43 (2) of the ‘Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002’ states: -
(2) Where the road marking has been placed in conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light signals means -
(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that line; or
(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle lane.What this means is that it is an offence for a motor vehicle not to stop at the first stop line if the lights have changed to red. If the light changes to red whilst the vehicle is between the two lines or it is part of the braking distance, then the vehicle must stop before the second line. Bicycles are exempt from stopping at first line.
Rule 178 of ‘The Highway Code’ also deals with this matter.
Officers will bear in mind the clarity and visibilty of the ‘Stop Line’ when dealing with road users. If there is any dubiety as to whether the lines are clear enough to be seen, advice will be given and the local council informed.
"
http://www.scotland.police.uk/whats-happening/news/2013/november/198588
Posted 11 years ago # -
Bicycles are exempt from stopping at first line.
Very significant statement considering some people's concerns about crossing the first line if there is no broken line leading into it.
Posted 11 years ago # -
On the other hand this is a great get out of jail free card.
or it is part of the braking distanceTo my mind, especially for heavies, with this clause the first vehicle in the queue after the lights change can casually glide into it. Only thing that the asl prevents is the creeping encroachment.
Posted 11 years ago # -
@steveo surely if a "careful & competent driver" could have stopped at the first stop line then anyone overrunning it has run the red light?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Aye, but you need to prove that and if the light has not been red for more than a few seconds you could probably argue that you didn't want to risk stopping abruptly.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Which is the same argument many cyclists have for running red lights, "If I had stopped someone behind would have driven over me". Same thing would be possible, "If I had stopped my car at the first stop line someone behind may have run into the back of me." So by not stopping at the first, but stopping at the second, in order to avoid a collision, the driver has been shown to be 'careful'.
It's all a bit woolly, but the nature of the infrastructure means it has to be. If the rule was 'you must never stop in the cycle reservoir' then you'd naturally create a lot more RLJing motorists who could not stop behind the first line, could have stopped behind the second, but because they're not allowed to stop in the box are caught between two criminal actions.
The more they're discussed, the more I'm going off ASLs... Can we have segregated lanes and advanced greens for cyclists please?
Posted 11 years ago # -
I've said it before, there is a problem with the ASL design in that the front stop line is still "a stop line". Traffic light postioning and the look of the front stop line either give the motorist the excuse to stop at that one rather than the first, or are misunderstood by the ignorant.
Why not just have a single stop line at the back of the ASL, which applies to motor vehicles, and some sort of dotted line that applies to cyclists at the front of the box?
Posted 11 years ago # -
@EdinburghPolice TSRGD states that a bicycle rider must be proceeding in the cycle lane in order to cross first stop line legally, >
@EdinburghPolice > but several examples in Edin of first stop line unbroken at kerb. And how can cycles enter ASL legally when approaching >
@EdinburghPolice > from an offside lane? Usually impossible and undesirable to perform multiple right-angled turns within length of ASL.
@EdinburghPolice replies:
"concerns or observations over incorrect road markings should be reported via the @Edinburgh_CC website."
which is sort of helpful, but avoids answering the other point.
Posted 11 years ago # -
At least it's public confirmation that the Police consider unbroken first stop lines to be 'incorrect road markings'.
So perhaps we should be reporting these via Clarence?
Posted 11 years ago # -
Funny one this morning at gillespies X road. I was in the advanced stopping box pointing east towards embra. Car to my right was positioned behind the ASL. Just before the light changed the driver rolled the car fully into the ASB. We proceeded east together. The driver then waited for me to get across the junction.. Not sure why they just didn't give me the head start by staying out of the ASB BUT I thought I would bore you all with this anodyne anecdote nevertheless.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@gembo, you're lucky the driver didn't just cut you up with an aggressive overtake then force you to sit behind them at the next queue 50 yards further on, with insufficient gap between their vehicle and parked cars. That's what many seem to do, just because they can I reckon.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Yeah crowriver that is fairly typical but the next lights in this instance are a mile down the hill. There is a flat bit then the two lanes downhill. All fine until the cars parked in one lane and the islands all at 40mph
Posted 8 years ago # -
https://twitter.com/EdinPolSE/status/966619138813779969
Police at Haymarket "encouraging responsible cycling". Will be there again tomorrow morning.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I was waiting to turn down Queensferry Road from Princes Street this morning and a fire engine came up the other way with the blue lights on. Got stuck at the bus stop pinch point and had to turn on the sirens to get the white vans to move.
Maybe someone from the police could have encouraged responsible driving? Or even competent driving.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Bit of an over reaction on Twitter to the Haymarket thing? There's been enough comment on here, not to say a thread on bad cycling, indicating that "we" feel there are plenty cyclists in need of education on being responsible.
The red light for pedestrians would tend to indicate that the van is passing over the box during the fraction of a second the photo captures, rather than being stopped in it.
Posted 7 years ago #
Reply
You must log in to post.
posts
