http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/19/boris-johnson-considers-banning-cyclists-headphones
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Cycling News
Boris Johnson considers ban on London cyclists wearing headphones
(47 posts)-
Posted 11 years ago #
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Good luck with that. Boris. While you're at it, can we have a ban on drivers using mobile phones? What? This is already banned? But...
Posted 11 years ago # -
Car stereos too I suppose?
Posted 11 years ago # -
The police chief's comments are weasel words too. Yes cyclists need to be very careful, hang back etc. That is common sense and welcome. It's what he didn't say to balance that though that is concerning. Essentially he's implying that motorists (especially HGV drivers) don't have to take extra care because they are less vulnerable. Go ahead and kill cyclists, after all they're the ones that need to be careful.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I've never understood anyone wearing headphones while cycling on the road in any city to be honest. Surely it insulates you a bit from the sounds that let you know what's going on and can obviously help you keep one step ahead?
For what it's worth, I also don't think it does anything for the positive image of cyclists either. It's a very visible thing that's easily noticed by lots of car drivers and pedestrians and from what I've read and heard, just adds to the stereotype of cyclists not giving a f&ck about their own safety.
For every cyclist I see wearing headphones who appear to be experienced and riding defensively/alertly, I see two or three who are listening to headphones and cycling poorly/without a care in the world, usually cruising through a red light or pulling out in to traffic without checking or indicating. It's the same as the red light thing, until we as a community make a concerted effort to stop people doing it, the reputation is going to stick.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Surely it insulates you a bit from the sounds that let you know what's going on and can obviously help you keep one step ahead?
To a degree I suppose it does but often as not what is the traffic noise telling you? That there is lots of traffic around, hardly revealing. Plowing on into a head wind I usually can't hear much any way, last close call I had with a bus the First I know of it was the damm things wake, I didn't respond to the engine noise becuase it was a two lane road with plenty of room to over take.
Headphones are a red hearing and an easy out for Boris, instead of fixing the issues lets blame the
<minority de jur>headphones. And I'm not my brothers keeper, I'm not all that fussy if someone elses action reflect badly on another just becuase they both happen to ride a bike.Posted 11 years ago # -
I used to wear headphones while cycling when I was much younger. I know better now.
More importantly, this looks to me like the London authorities are suggesting that all those people killed by HGVs were entirely to blame for their own deaths.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I used to not wear earphones while cycling. Then I came to the same conclusion as steveo that there's not a lot I can do with the info...
Hear a engine bearing down on you from behind sounding like it's going to pass too close? What do you do? It happens like 3 times every day and I'm not going to leave the road each time just in case. I guess I'd rather not know now.Though I have to say most of my cycling is not on busy roads - I would probably think differently if I was 100% urban cycling.
Also means you can't hear the abuse that's (probably) being thrown at you which is a bonus.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Headphones are a complete red herring. Unless you have music absolutely blaring, you can still hear better on a bike with headphones than you can in a car with or without music playing. I wonder what the Dutch think of riding with headphones? Probably don't bat an eyelid.
Cyclists in London are being killed because the "cycling mayor" has supplied substandard and inherently dangerous infrastructure. The lorry/cyclist collision problem is endemic and telling naughty cyclists not to wear headphones does not in any way address it.
I also couldn't care less about the public perception of the "cycling community". I've never regarded myself as a "member" of any such "community". I don't even have any friends who cycle. The idea that some of "us" can be held responsible for the behaviour of others is preposterous.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Headphones are a complete red herring. Unless you have music absolutely blaring, you can still hear better on a bike with headphones than you can in a car with or without music playing.
I disagree, I've used both, and ear buds completely disconnect you from the environment around you.
Although ironic he is saying this on the day pictures of him using a mobile phone whilst cycling are released, doh.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Although ironic he is saying this on the day pictures of him using a mobile phone whilst cycling are released, doh.
Indeed. There are videos out there of him running 6 red lights in a row, too! I'm beginning to dislike Boris more and more - IMO he doesn't have a clue.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I disagree with the disagreement.
I wear headphones at a low volume and I honestly believe they help me concentrate. The rare times when I don't wear them, I find my mind wandering but, when there's a low level tune going on in the background I'm just paying attention to the road.
I wouldn't have them blaring, and I can hear everything around me.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Johnson's rant was a diversionary tactic designed to make folk disregard Chris Boardman's reminder that he honour his promise to consider restrictions on HGVs. Seems to have worked too, given that the media (and folk here on CCE) are focussed on headphone wearing cyclists.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I tried cycling with ear buds for a week in order to write an article about it. To be honest I didn't feel it limited my ability in any way. If anything I found that paranoia made me more careful on shoulder checks the like.
As has been hinted at above, when cycling just what does hearing give you? A car from behind that is going to pass with 3m space will sound identical to the one that will pass within 6 inches. And (as long as the music wasn't blaring) I could hear everything anyway.
And should we ban deaf people from cycling?
The reason I stopped cycling with them was simply because while 'exercising' I find earphones uncomfortable.
"... until we as a community make a concerted effort to stop people doing it, the reputation is going to stick"
It's an interesting idea that keeps coming back time and again, that all cyclists are responsible for the actions of all other cyclists. I don't really get it, we're just people who happen to share a transport method. I also drive, and don't feel responsible for the actions of other motorists when one of them does something stupid; I'm a person who doesn't feel responsible when someone else murders someone; why as a cyclist should I feel responsible when someone runs a red light? (or, indeed, wears headphones).
If cyclists are never going to get respect and protection ont he roads until absolutely every single cyclist behaves correctly then it's going to be a long wait, because cyclists are people, and any single cross-section of people will have rule-breakers within it. So we might as well stop trying now.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Has there ever been a bigger victim-blaming red herring than headphones?
Let's say that wearing headphones is like wearing a motorcycle helmet, and effectively you can't hear.
So what?
Is there any credible evidence that people are being crushed by HGVs because they can't hear them?
What, exactly, does an HGV that's about to kill you sound like?
I'm keen to know because motorcyclists also have a high death toll, and we could potentially make it illegal to wear a motorbike helmet that doesn't have a microphone on top and internal speakers to relay the sound of killer HGVs to the rider.
Posted 11 years ago # -
The Police will have a good idea whether or not the cyclists killed recently were wearing headphones. If it hasn't been mentioned in reports then I'd assume (unless shown otherwise) that they weren't and that this is a red-herring.
One of the cyclist deaths I know about (many years ago) involved a cyclist who was deaf/hard of hearing, and who may have been surprised by a lorry pulling alongside. The suprise might have been enough to lead to him losing control and falling against the side of the lorry but nobody could know for sure. So should deaf cyclists be banned from using roads? Or should all motorists have to give cyclists enough space that they don't risk hitting them even if they move off course, for whatever reason?
If cyclists are being trapped after going up the inside of large vehicle that are about to turn left then it seems unlikely that they could tell if the large vehicle was about to turn just by hearing it better.Posted 11 years ago # -
I have to confess to listening to radio 4 when cycling - although most of the time I can't hear it as my radio is very quiet.
It would be impossible to police as well, but we have to worry if it's ever used as contributory in accidents.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I don't have headphones just now. I tend to go for six months at a time when I miss it, buy some, then they eventually break.
Surely there will be some impact on crash rates, but I wouldn't like to stake my life on whether they go up or down. Every driver who's afraid to knock down someone they see wearing headphones is counterbalancing a notional rider who's not paying attention, if that effect is indeed real. You'd need to offset it against the impact of radio use in cars to understand it in context.
The real statistic is pretty stark, and it's the one that Boris seems desperate to distract us from:
- HGVs make up 4% of vehicle movements in London.
- 5 out of 7 recent deaths (71%) involved HGV drivers (the long term trend is over 50%)The remaining two (29%) involved bus drivers.
Headphones aren't even a footnote here.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Until my ipod was nicked from the car,i used to have my left earbud in with the radio or a podcast on low
if there was a bit of a wind then I couldnt hear it,so pretty lowPosted 11 years ago # -
Another Radio 4 cyclist. TFTD at 0745 hrs can be a bit annoying when Anne Atkins is on it but it's easy enough to pop the earphones off when they announce her.
Posted 11 years ago # -
in case there's any unnecessary confusion my comments above after those from WC and Dave were written before seeing those posts (we were probably all writing at same time).
Posted 11 years ago # -
Oh well, since my actions have no effect on the perception of cyclists as a whole, I'll just start running all the red light I see, using pavements whether they are shared use or not, knock a few peds down and ride around the city bypass while I'm at it.
I've had assumptions made about my cycling when I've had issues with motorists even though I've done nothing wrong when said motorists have seen me.
On the specific case of headphones (and separating it from moaning about Boris's use of the subject), I think it is poor road craft to reduce your ability to hear on the road, and that definitely goes for loud music in motor vehicles. At least most of them do it without something plugged into or on top of their ears.
I must admit, a lot of the complaints I see from cyclists about things they are told not to do smack of being annoyed that it's spoiling their "freedom" to do what they want. Kind of like when motorists were first forced to wear seatbelts (but I'm not directly equating that to things like headphones, just the reaction resulting from it).
I know the above won't prove universally popular (it's clear from some of the preceding comments), but why should I care? Apparently.
Posted 11 years ago # -
"Oh well, since my actions have no effect on the perception of cyclists as a whole, I'll just start running all the red light I see, using pavements whether they are shared use or not, knock a few peds down and ride around the city bypass while I'm at it."
Now no-one has actually said that have they? But rather that I shouldn't personally be held responsible for the actions of other cyclists (I don't RLJ, pavement cycle etc.).
"I must admit, a lot of the complaints I see from cyclists about things they are told not to do smack of being annoyed that it's spoiling their "freedom" to do what they want"
I don't use headphones. I don't think headphones should be banned. Not sure where I fit in to that demographic.
"I know the above won't prove universally popular (it's clear from some of the preceding comments), but why should I care? Apparently."
Different opinions. It's allowed.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Oh well, since my actions have no effect on the perception of cyclists as a whole, I'll just start running all the red light I see, using pavements whether they are shared use or not, knock a few peds down and ride around the city bypass while I'm at it.
Oh well, since my actions have no effect on the perception of black people as a whole, I'll just start robbing all the shops I see, beating women whether they are white or not, sell a few drugs on street corners and do a few drive-by shootings while I'm at it.
... to which you expect people to say what?
You're right, it's pretty annoying when ignorant people clutch at collective punishment to legitimise their bad driving behaviour or general hate of cyclists as a group - but not half as annoying as when other cyclists try to argue that collective punishment and group hatred is justified.
Black people aren't responsible for the actions of all other black people, the behaviour of people who own bikes does not reflect on other bike owners in any way. At least not to a semi-sane citizen of present day society...
Bigots. Let's challenge them, not legitimise them.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Watched a ped today with massive cans walk right in front of a car, fortunately the driver slowed down to make the open arms WTF gesture. Boris should ban wearing of headphones across the board, also when I used to try to drive I found the radio off putting, I think radios CD players etc should be banned in cars.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Alec Issigonis agreed.
I find long trips (London) are easier with the radio or iPod to listen to.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Did not know that about issigonis.
We usually have a story from Stephen Fry of a Harry potter nature. think JK Rowling could have had editorial advice re pruning but hey she is a billionaire.
Tried goodnight Mister Tom once and was deeply scarred. Sown into his underpants poor wee soul. Narrated by Patrick malahide. Very good actor IMO
My job navigation, changing of CDs and dishing out sweeties and buying the chips at tebay. Regardless of where we are going we always go via tebay.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Whilst I wasn't aiming for a reaction, I wasn't surprised to get one. I was intentionally sarcastic. Whether it was good sarcasm or not is definitely open to debate, but please keep that particular opinion to yourselves for the sake of this thread staying on topic ;-)
I wasn't saying it was right that we should all be judged by another's actions either, of course we shouldn't. But in many people's eyes, way too many, we are.
Posted 11 years ago # -
I totally agree - JK needs an editor. It's what happens when writers get too famous and people are afraid to tell them. If she gives me a ring I'll tell her where to prune.
Boris? Does anyone pay any attention to Boris any more? He was an idiot when he was elected but people still seem to be unable to see through his desperate floundering.
Posted 11 years ago # -
Kids are getting too big for the play area at Tebay but the food is good.
It's half way to the memsahib's brother in Wales.
It now has two strikes against it in my book. In 1974 my dad's '71 Opel Rekord 1900 wagon ignition key wouldn't work there and we had to be AA Relayed back to Ayrshire. This summer my car started to red line after we left Tebay and the heater control valve dumped all the coolant in the driver footwell a few miles further south. Big bronzy 940 2.3 turbo had to be AA Relayed back to Airdrie. Coincidence? I think not.
I prefer to drive to England at night and not stop to feed kids. Memsahib doesn't really like music on in the car. These days boys have DVDs or iPads in the back seat. Once she falls asleep I have to find my own swedgers and Coke. Navigation is Tomtom's thing.
Posted 11 years ago #
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