Public Consultation Meadow Place Road/Broomhouse Road

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Public Consultation Meadow Place Road/Broomhouse Road

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Started 10 years ago by neddie
Latest reply from HankChief

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meadow place broomhouse road consultation

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neddie
Member

Comments close 6th December!

Public Consultation - Road and Footway Improvements Meadow Place Road/Broomhouse Road

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20054/west_neighbourhood/1619/public_consultation_meadow_place_road_broomhouse_road

Following extensive site investigation and assessments, carried out by Urban Movement (an independent Road Safety consultant) in December 2012, in consultation with the West Neighbourhood Roads Team, designs have been drawn up detailing proposed improvements along this important distributor link in the West of Edinburgh.

The proposed new layout is primarily focussed on:-
improving road safety for all road users; pedestrians and cyclists providing a cycling network that joins into existing links in the area promoting clearer sight lines at junctions
making drivers more aware of pedestrians along this stretch of road providing 8 more designated crossing facilities.

As part of the Council's commitment to consult on developments within our communities, the proposed road footway improvements on Meadow Place Road are being offered for public consultation.

Hard copies of the design drawings and full consultation document are available in the Drumbrae Library and Corstorphine Library.

The public consultation period will end on Friday 06 December 2013.

You are invited to review the proposed improvements and offer your comments to these proposals.
Questions and comments in relation to the proposed road footway improvements on Meadow Place Road can be made in writing to:
West Neighbourhood Environment Team
Drum Brae Library Hub
81 Drum Brae Drive
Edinburgh
EH4 7FE
sfc.westneighbourhood@edinburgh.gov.uk

Posted 10 years ago #
threefromleith
Member

It's actually Broomhall Road, not Broomhouse :-)

Posted 10 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/downloads/file/11787/meadow_place_road-cycle_facilities

Link for cycling plans PDF. Don't get too excited. It's basically an advisory red-chipped lane past Forester/Augustine's School.

Observations;

- it starts about 30m short of the Toucan Crossing under the railway bridge. No link between Broomhouse Path and the new advisory lane. Connection entirely lacking.
- there's a small section of tarmac to connect the rather shonky path that runs to the south of the railway line between Gogarloch housing and the schools. It finished with a guardrail blocking straight ahead, requiring a double dog-leg around the guardrail and down the dropped kerb. Note the pavement is not shared use here so really you should be getting off and pushing.
- The difficult to navigate crossing near Gylemuir school to remain as is. Access still difficult to Meadow Place Road if you're coming from direction of South Gyle Station or the school.
- Dropped kerb at the end of that tiny lane out of Tesco will be useful, but will take confidence to move out into traffic.
-

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Looks good, from an 'it's an improvement' point of view.

I cycle this way taking the kids to swimming at Forrester's, so welcome the cycle lanes and the 1.2m wide right turn refuge in the middle of the road.

If you are going to do this much work then you really need to work connecting it, such as the Broomhouse Path. I also seem to recall that there aren't dropped curbs to get from the toucan crossing to the school once you are on the path. (I'll check & feed in). And when you get to Tesco's, you are on your own to get up to Drumbrae roundabout.

So, it's a reasonable start, but putting cycle lanes onto nice wide roads is not going to change many peoples' views on cycling...

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Have ridden Meadow Place Road a couple of time recently and I'm now getting mixed feelings about the proposals.

With the railings next to the road, I found myself riding quite a way out from the curb (maybe 1.5 - 2 metres), which was fine because the vehicles overtaking had plenty of space to get round me.

With the cycle path being 1.5m wide, I would be riding at the edge or outside it, but in the future vehicles would be closer to me because of the 1.2m hatched area in the centre of the road and occasional pedestrian refuges.

Is this an unreasonable fear of cycling next to the railing?

P.S. I checked and if you take the toucan crossing and footpath into the school you are confronted with an un-dropped curb...

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"
Spokes welcomes the opportunity to comment on the Council’s proposals for Meadow Place Road / Broomhouse Road. We accept that these are an improvement on the recently existing conditions for pedestrians and cyclists but we have a number of suggestions that would improve them further.

"

http://www.spokes.org.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/1312-response-final-Public-Consultation-Meadow-Place-Road.doc

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

From Sustrans:

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/files/scotland/policy/meadow-place-road-sustrans-response.pdf

I think we can say that the cycle infra debate in Scotland has finally grown up.

Posted 10 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Pretty good response from Sustrans, I like it. Particularly if it were to set a precendent about what can be achieved for not much extra money.

Posted 10 years ago #
cc
Member

what can be achieved for not much extra money

Or perhaps for less money, given the possible 50% subsidy which Sustrans dangles invitingly in section 3.

Posted 10 years ago #
Morningsider
Member

Good response from Sustrans - I hope the Council re-design the scheme along the lines suggested. It would be nice to see the Council coming up with these designs themselves rather than the business as usual designs they keep pumping out. I think there should be a presumption against any new advisory cycle lanes, unless there is a compelling reason for not putting in mandatory lanes.

Posted 10 years ago #
PS
Member

I like what Sustrans are saying there.

Posted 10 years ago #
cc
Member

unless there is a compelling reason for not putting in mandatory lanes.

Of course there is - you can't park your car in them :-/

Posted 10 years ago #
steveo
Member

Its probably the best thing this road has going for it, there is currently no where to stop so no parking should be removed.

The plans as sustrans put up would be fantastic, as that is a fast wide road with two (one really) schools on it. The cycle lanes would narrow it and hopefully reduce speeds. Only thing that would be better would be a proper kerbed segregated lane.

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Steveo - you live in the area don't you? Would be great if a (supportive) resident took the sustrans proposal to the community council - just an email to me would do.

And perhaps also an email to two to the councillors in the area?

My reply below got spammed, so pasting here instead.

enquiries@sbpcc.org.uk

http://www.sbpcc.org.uk/

Councillors here http://www.sbpcc.org.uk/political_contacts.htm

Posted 10 years ago #
steveo
Member

Can do, who should I contact from the consultation? Sorry having a slow brain.

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

enquiries@sbpcc.org.uk

http://www.sbpcc.org.uk/

Councillors here http://www.sbpcc.org.uk/political_contacts.htm

Posted 10 years ago #
steveo
Member

Cheers SRD, I'll take a look this evening.

Posted 10 years ago #
crowriver
Member

I found the responses from Sustrans and Spokes to be saying quite similar things. Both good, sensible missives. The offer of potentially more cash from Sustrans is a good carrot for the Council to revise its plans. I hope they will do so, as it would allow the cycling budget to go further and produce a decent bit of infrastructure in the process.

Posted 10 years ago #
DdF
Member

Yes, the sustrans submission, accompanied by 50% funding possibility, is great. Just to clarify one point in the crowriver message, I suspect (though I don't know) tht the cost of this scheme is being met from the local area team's budget, not from the council's cycling budget.* The scheme was I think originated by the area team, and certainly covered more than just cycling - in fact it was not a 'cycling project' as such.

Incidentally, because it was an area project, spokes only heard of it by chance - a week before the initial closing date - so we contacted local members + others relevant such as sustrans. I doubt sustrans or any other non-local-area groups were formally consulted either. We are trying to get that changed since obviously it has big effects on cycling conditions, and could be far better than their initial proposals.

*Yes, although we complain tht the cycle budget is sometimes used for non-cycling things, the reverse happens quite often too!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"The scheme was I think originated by the area team, and certainly covered more than just cycling - in fact it was not a 'cycling project' as such."

If true (and DdF's report seems convincing) this is, sadly, yet another example of inadequate co-ordination within the council and (apparently) a lack of any overall strategy - in spite of the ATAP.

As I said in my response to the Meadows - Innocent consultation -

"It is clear that CEC needs to do a lot more (and what it does, better) if it is to have any chance of meeting its own cycling targets. This requires more joined up working across its departments and better/clearer political leadership."

http://www.citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11898#post-137189

Once again it demonstrates the importance of Spokes and the vigilance and diligence of a relatively small number of people.

It's almost as if CEC 'expects' Spokes to 'keep it right', which clearly isn't good enough for a staffed organisation to 'rely' on a handful of well-meaning - and well-informed volunteers!

It's good that Sustrans has got involved, it's obviously good that it has a pot of (Scottish Government - ie taxpayer) money for things like this, BUT it's hardly a well designed/co-ordinated system/strategy!

Perhaps lessons will finally be learned??

Ps it would be SO good if the Sustrans scheme can be implemented and rapidly replicated!

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Yes. It is this idea that spokes is there to 'keep the council right' that I object to, because it leads to norm that that is what campaigning is about, which is why we (I) get accused of 'negativity' from councillors and being a 'cop-out' by other campaigners when we don't play along!

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

Yes there does seem to be an element of 'the right sort of campaigning' being 'more acceptable' - to some.

There is no 'right' sort of campaigning. Some things work better than others. Some councillors/officials/etc. 'welcome' a bit of pressure as it helps their case others seem to only expect 'encouragement' - especially when things are 'better than they were' - eg QBC.

This can lead to complacency and an acceptance that things can only be improved 'incrementally' and - too often - 'compromises'.

As I have said before, in various ways, maybe 'we' (who want things to be better for those who cycle and those too scared to) and those who set the 'targets' should just give up.

I suspect that one of the reasons that PoP was created was to get things moving faster - or even get a 'step-change'.

I think that, so far, PoP has made a difference, though it has already met some resistance from some 'campaigners' (NOT Spokes) who don't think segregated routes are a good idea...

New Scientist 1981

Posted 10 years ago #
DdF
Member

It's almost as if CEC 'expects' Spokes to 'keep it right', which clearly isn't good enough for a staffed organisation to 'rely' on a handful of well-meaning - and well-informed volunteers!

I don't agree with first part of that sentence, though would agree with 2nd part if 1st part was true!

In the case we are discussing, Meadowplace Road, Spokes was NOT contacted by the council or asked for its opinion. We only discovered it because one of our local members contacted us.

There are countless cases, large and small, where spokes has wanted things which the council has not adopted, or where we have told them in plenty time they are getting things wrong - the original layout of the tramlines years ago being one of the biggest!

On a related point it's always worth remembering that 'the council' is a whole host of differing interests, not the unified entity which it might appear. e.g. over the garden sheds issue we won (at least provisionally we have won) thanks to certain supportive individual councillors, who persuaded enough colleagues, though not all, and in the face of opposition from the Planning Dept (relevant senior officers). This is one reason why it is important for people to lobby their own councillors and not imagine everything can be won only by rational argument with the person who nominally is in charge of cycling/transport.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"I don't agree with first part of that sentence, though would agree with 2nd part if 1st part was true!"

@DdF - don't worry I know nothing is as straightforward as I might have been trying to portray it!

I think you would agree that without Spokes things would be much worse.

It would be better if CEC had taken Spokes' advice more often. The general point I was making was that I think it's about time CEC produced some better, more coherent plans, that didn't require such scrutiny.

"it's always worth remembering that 'the council' is a whole host of differing interests, not the unified entity which it might appear"

That unfortunately is all too true. But the point is that CEC has policies that (a majority of) elected councillors have approved but don't always get implemented adequately. In the first instance this is the responsibility of senior management, but ultimately it's up to politicians to make sure their policies are implemented.

Posted 10 years ago #
neddie
Member

28 February 2014

Dear Local Member/Stakeholder,

Meadow Place Road – Road and Footway Improvements

I refer to previous correspondence and consultation regarding the proposed road and footway improvements to Meadow Place Road. Please accept my apologies for not providing you with a more timeous update.

During the recent public consultation, which ended on 13th December 2013, a number of responses were received outlining several suggestions, concerns and comments which required consideration to be given to several areas of the project.
The Project Team has had the opportunity to meet with Sustrans on 24 January 2014 to discuss and consider the principal of general suggestions made by their organisation.

A further meeting was held on 18 February 2014 with colleagues from the Council’s Transport section (Cycling, Design and Traffic Signals) to discuss and consider responses received from the wider consultation. During this meeting the physical extent of the scheme was considered with a view to potentially reducing the length affected to the area immediately outside the schools.

The rationale of this proposal is to ensure that a safe and practical pedestrian barrier and crossing scheme can be delivered outside the school as soon as reasonably possible, taking account programming and budgetary considerations. The issue of pedestrian and road user road safety is paramount in our decision process, however other factors we are considering relate to the wider connectivity in the area for cycleways and active travel options.

A final assessment is being concluded with colleagues from our Road Safety and Cycling teams and I have arranged the completion of our Pedestrian Guardrail Removal Procedure. I anticipate that this will be complete by mid March and I will be in a position to confirm our planned delivery date shortly after.

Considering the protracted time scale associated with these proposed works we are also considering making use of pre-made temporary island units to allow for the installation phase to occur during a suitable school holiday period.

I would like to reassure you of the commitment to deliver this project over the spring/summer of 2014. I am sure that you will support the West Neighbourhood Team, as Project leaders, to ensure that all safety aspects of removing such a longstanding feature as the guardrails along Meadow Place Road are fully considered at each step in this process.
I will ensure that you are provided with a further update over the next few weeks.

I trust this information is of assistance. If you require any further information please contact me on 0131 529 7075.

Yours sincerely
Signature of or on behalf of
Dave Sinclair
Local Environment Manager
West Neighbourhood Team

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Seen on twitter that the work on Meadowhouse Road is starting this week.

Anyone know what the final design is?

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

One pinchpoint has now been put in

Meadowhouse Road Pinchpoint by HankChief, on Flickr

They will be putting in more...

Posted 10 years ago #
stiltskin
Member

It is Meadow Place Road?

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

@Stiltskin - you're right, I should have said Meadow Place Road. Although double checking a map, once you are South of the Railway it turns into Broomhouse Road. So the picture above by the school is Broomhouse Road.

Posted 10 years ago #
steveo
Member

It looks like, on the ground, the only improvements are to be more traffic islands. So more traffic management using cyclists as chicanes...

Posted 10 years ago #

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