CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
"...no vehicle shall proceed past such one of those lines as is nearer the cycle track..."
"Doesn't say "you must stop"."
No, but I think we're definitely straying into the realms of ultimate pedantry (I hear a pot called a kettle black today).
Pics in a mo.
Pic 1, from the give way line as it is, this is terrible (and I'm higher than the average car window too).
Untitled by Anthony Robson, on Flickr
Pic 2, a couple of yards further on, closer to where pedestrians will cross, but not blocking it.
Untitled by Anthony Robson, on Flickr
Probably a good case for a STOP sign at first give way then extra give way between ped and cycle bits.
Would increase chance of vehicles stopping on ped bit, but almost certain to happen anyway.
The "Give Way" line needs to be moved forward until it is in line with the wall i.e where WC took the 2nd photo above.
Trust CEC to take a good idea and make it terrible. Expect the Give Way markings to switch to the cycle lane rather than simply be moved to a sensible place. Possibly followed by Cyclists Dismount signs.
@min right. Truly terrible implementation. The current give way is way too far back and implies to the driver, that once past this, they can proceed as far as the carriageway.
The give way line (and sign if there is one) should be advanced right up to the cycleway - not just as far as the pedestrian crossing - and there should be no give way line at the carriageway. That will make it as clear as possible that cars exiting must give way for both the cycleway and carriageway, and they must not exit (cross the give way line) until both the cycleway and carriageway are clear. A second line at the carriageway implies that the motorist can cross the first line if the cycleway is clear and then sit across the cycleway waiting for the road to clear, which is what happened to Wilmington's Cow today.
A stop sign would not be appropriate here, and in any case would be of no benefit.
We really need better visual priority here. All the markings on the cycle path make priority ambiguous.
I would tweet/email the photos above to Lesley Hinds as it should be no bother to paint a new set of lines if the current ones are a danger.
Email to the Councillors for the area. I started going off on one...
-----
Hi there, I'm contacting you as the Councillors for the area within which the St Leonard's Street and Bowmont Place junction lies. This is where the great new cycle infrastructure is being put in place to link the Innocent Tunnel to the Meadows. It's great to see this happen as the closing of a missing link, and can only benefit this as a family network type route.
The other day, however, I came across a slight issue at the above junction. I've put a link to a YouTube video below. I had simply assumed that the driver in this instance had ignored the Give Way line before crossing the new lane (I realise the lane isn't 'officially' open yet, but the road markings are certainly in place to make it appear so to anyone crossing it). On the challenging of a few people I went back to check the sightlines, and basically from the Give Way line a driver has no chance of seeing down the cyclepath. I've linked to a photo on Flickr I took from the line, and noting that as I was on my bike I'm somewhat higher than a driver will be.
This means drivers have absolutely no chance of seeing if there is a cyclist using the lane, they have to pull forward past the line, and once beyond that the markings don't oblige a driver to stop anymore until the actual main road, which essentially encourages them to drive over the cyclepath (which is also the problem with the second Give Way line, it puts the 'stop to wait for the road to be clear' point right on the cyclepath.
I know that the Council has previously undertaken study trips to the likes of Copenhagen and Amsterdam. I've cycled in both, as well as Paris, which is a somewhat unexpected cycling city, and the solution in all three (and others I've seen) is a little different. There is only one Give Way line, which is set just before the cyclepath. Drivers have to wait until the cyclepath AND the road is clear before pulling out. This obviously means that the driver will be stopped over the pedestrian point (which I presume is the reason for the current set-up), but that's no different to the current situation on any side street joining the main road (and a pedestrian can legally go round the back of a stopped car - technically if a cyclist is faced with a car stopped at the junction, to ride round the back would require moving onto the pedestrian part of the path, therefore committing an offence).
The new infrastructure is so so close to being very good indeed, but it's some way off the way it's done in true cycling cities such as the above mentioned Copenhagen etc. and it's not as if those solutions actually require any additional effort (in fact it involves less paint).
I realise this email could easily be interpreted as yet another whinging cyclist, but if anyone wants to pigeonhole people into categories I'm also a driver, homeowner, professional, taxpayer, and voter, who just happens to have seen what cities can achieve if they have the courage to try brand new things on a huge scale, and of course it was the Council which stated cycling 'aspirations' (once upon a time they were 'targets') for cycling in the city, and to be a 'world class cycling city'. Little things like this being close-but-no-cigar make that all seem a way off.
Apologies if this message reads as a little frustrated, but like the markings on the road being put into the wrong position on the crossing to the Meadows itself; the wrong tactiles being put in, then the tactiles being put in the wrong direction; virtually the entirety of the 'Quality' Bike Corridor; the missed opportunity that Leith Walk is shaping up to be... Well, it IS a frustrating time to be a cyclist in the city. Better than some, better than MANY, but World Class Cycling City? Doubtful in my lifetime.
Where was I? Oh yes, Bowmont Place. Would be great if someone could have another look at it before everything goes live.
Many thanks
Anthony Robson
YouTube Video:
Flickr pic:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/blackpuddinonnabike/19499026311/
@Wilmington Very nicely put! Thanks for your efforts.
I've just been described as 'harsh'.
"Thank you for the email. I shall request a response from our cycling team on behalf of all four cllrs (we have a allocation system for those who write to all four of us) and revert to you as soon as I can. The other cllrs may wish to contact you as well.
On your other points, the tactiles that you mentioned were placed wrongly in error by the contractor and quickly fixed without charge. Describing such a minor inconvenience as frustrating seems a little unreasonable to me. In a council with such reputational challenges as Edinburgh has, I feel that our cycling team do well and deserve a lot of credit. For example, the active travel action plan outlines and prioritises improvements very well. Do please consider whether your words below are not a little harsh."
Pondering a response.
EDIT: Personally I thought I was quite measured....
Agh, St Leonard's Lane, you are correct chdot. So definitely need to reply.
@WC it is notable that while "the active travel action plan outlines and prioritises improvements very well" is used as an example of 'how well' the cycling team have been doing and how much credit they deserve, no specific example has been cited to back this up, yet you clearly had little difficulty listing many frustrating issues...
Your email seemed well balanced and semi-complementary so I am not entirely sure what provoked that odd reply.
Another councillor has responded, a little more positively :)
Your email very balanced, positive and constructive. Any chance of sharing councillors' names, so I can add a constructive comment?
ih, never sure about sharing names of the folk who have written these things. I know they're technically public servants. Below is the later response from a different councillor, and my reply. Feel better now....
------
I think we need an official response from the team who have designed and implemented this project and my fellow councillor has asked for that (no duplication).
I’m a bit more sympathetic than Jim, though, and share your frustrations on many of these issues. I tick all the boxes you do (OK I’m a local politician, not a professional J) and cycle these routes regularly. The unfinished surfaces on parts of the Quality Bike Corridor frustrate me most!
The location you are describing is St Leonard’s Lane at St Leonard’s Street (Bowmont place is further along). I’ve cycled along it a couple of times – as you say it is far from finished – and felt something not quite right with that junction and the next one up, Hermits Croft. We will see what the response is.
On another issue I note that the new cycleway surface is not as level as you would expect. I suppose it might slow speeds down a bit – but after seeing your video of that section, I wondered what you thought of it.
All other points noted.
---------
Thank you both for the (very quick!) responses.
I certainly wouldn't want to intimate that the Cycling Team weren't doing a good job, I recognise they are fairly constrained, and many of the frustrations (I don't think the term is harsh to be honest) have come from contractor implementation being below what was expected. But often it's from the design stage (as mentioned on the QBC, and in this particular situation with the Give Way Line). Apologies on the location, you are absolutely right, St Leonard's Lane.
I don't think either of these things can necessarily be laid at the door of the Cycle Team, but the number of times minor things like this happen seems disproportionate (though I'm speaking from a position of no knowledge of how often road changes have to be redone - I try not to drive in the city if I can help it). So really any frustration is borne out of a build-up of issues, whereas obviously each in isolation is pretty minor and my email could indeed have been read as an over-reaction in that case.
I have to say, on the quality of the surface, I've read and heard some people saying it's not good, but I've no particular issue with it (I'd say the section on Buccleuch Street is marginally worse, but I don't think it's anything that would put people off using it, certainly novice/family cyclists looking to avoid the road). As I said previously, I think this could be a great piece of infrastructure, and I guess the full nature of it will be known once it's officially open (it just seemed particularly well timed to have a car come out of that junction and settle across the cycle lane (with nothing else he could have done) on the first occasion I thought I'd try it out!).
Again, thank you both for responding, and I do look forward to hearing an official response (and to using the route once it is complete).
Though obviously if anyone DOES have a particular gripe about the surface, fire away! (I'm only really giving my personal experience and didn't find it bad).
Here's a good blog on designing cycle track priority across side roads:
See Figure 3 – Markings to require traffic emerging from side road to give way, including to the cycle track
and
Figure 5 – Markings to require traffic emerging from and entering side road to give way, including to the cycle track
and also section: "1. Cycle track adjacent to the carriageway"
"I'm only really giving my personal experience and didn't find it bad"
I think that's true but I'm pretty sure it could be better.
Roads tend to be better because they are usually laid in wide sections using big machines.
I don't know if this was laid 'by hand' but I suspect that it was compacted with a small roller which can produce (gentle) rollercoaster surfaces.
I presume that 'path width' tarmac layers are available - but probably not specified as part of this contract(?)
A nicely balanced e-mail.
I read it as constructive rather than harsh - one has to assume that CEC was not trying to put in sub-standard facilities - it just feels a tad inexperienced. If this experience is to lead to improvements in this and future infrastructure, then all feedback from users should be welcomed.
The harsh reply would be "the councillors need to grow some bigger kahunas and take some lanes and/or space from cars (esp parked ones) to encourage cycling in the city centre.
A bit like George St could have been.
"I'm only really giving my personal experience and didn't find it bad"
Just rode it this morning and though it is a bit bumpy it took me a while to notice by thinking about it on purpose because of this thread. I think that's because it is glassy, caramely, dream-like smoothness in comparison to the roads.
Part of my frustration with the surface on the Buccleuch St section is that it wasn't bumpy before they ripped up the surface and relaid it with the red material. The bumpiness came in after it was relaid.
As a further update, lights on Buccleuch Street are on posts (though not yet operational), the stopping line has been redrawn correctly, lane markings have been painted on the cycleway (why they are needed I don't really know) and a left turn arrow on Gifford Park leading bikes onto the new cycleway. The top of Gifford Park looks pretty much finished, apart from the actual join between the original carriageway and the new surface. I assume/home they will make it a flush join sometime soon! But the pavement on Clerk Street looks pretty much finished as well. Work continues on Rankeillor Street where it joins Clerk Street.
Oh yes, two of the three original concrete bollards that were next to the pavement on Clerk Street have been relocated to where the Gifford Park carriageway "joins" the new surface. Glad to see them being reused :)
"original concrete bollards"
I assumed they were actually stone.
Re-use is a nice touch.
Apparently the surface at Buccleuch St was hand-laid which explains its bumpiness. Normally the council design team prefer to machine lay for cycletracks, but this was missed from the design instructions.
Also the sloped kerbs (45deg chamfer) can 'probably' break if machine laying is done.
Not sure why they don't specify (or invent) a sloped kerb that can tolerate machine laying...
Oh, the St Leonard's lane was partially blocked by traffic signs this morning. What else would it be used for?
I rode what I could of the route on Saturday evening - it seemed smooth enough considering the relatively low speeds that will actually be achievable on it, mostly due to the frequency of 90 degree bends and the road crossings... I will be interested to see how much use it gets when open.
Latest info -
"
It looks like the Clerk Street works are going to run in to the festival traffic embargo. So it will probably be completed in September - fully ready to use by beginning of October.
The other lights should be getting switched on before then. Hopefully by early August.
"
Bah. MIssed opportunity to have it all ready for the Festival season....
"I will be interested to see how much use it gets when open."
I'm confident it will get a lot of use. Perhaps even by people who think they'll 'just stick to the roads'.
There will be 'new' cyclists - and demand for more/better infrastructure!
I hope the three sets of lights will be cycle/ped responsive with short delays - but I'm not too optimistic.
I also hope that CEC looks closely at how it works in practice and is willing and able to tweak.
I still think the junction where the new segregated path on Buccleuch Street meets Gifford Park is a 'mistake', but usage will show whether there is conflict or not.
The Clerk Street lights are the most important part of the scheme. Without them you just have two random stretches of cycle track.
All very disappointing - the scheme was meant to be finished last month. Four months late for fairly short stretches of cycle track and three sets of traffic lights seems pretty poor.
You must log in to post.
Cycling in Edinburgh Flickr group
Video embedded using Easy Video Embed plugin
posts