Wot a curious question.
Am I to assume it's meant to be a compliment?
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Cycle Network
(360 posts)-
Posted 10 years ago #
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only possible way to take it. i mean, given that you put quote marks in and all.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Oh yes.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"only possible way to take it"
Ok. Sincerity is hard to discern on the internet.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I talked about this idea of backcasting on Ranty's latest blog. He replied:
Quite right. If there was vision, it should be where we want to get to. If space, regulations or whatever get in the way as we go, they need to be tackled and it might free up other blockages further along.
So it seems to me that we can do it. And even if you don't agree, you have to admit that, it is at least possible.
Posted 10 years ago # -
I agree that a city-wide plan would be great. So when an opportunity to add infrastructure comes up the plan can be checked and provision added.
I don't think the plan should be mistaken for a useable map from the outset. It may eventually become that but wishing it so is not helpful. That would give us the NCN situation.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The NCN is arguably the only cycle network in the UK which actually works - let's exclude the New Towns - and you're suggesting that we should do something along the lines of the (long since abandoned) London Cycle Network? I am sorry, Cyclingmollie, I don't agree.
When an opportunity to add infrastructure comes up the plan can be checked and provision added.
What is the advantage to this approach? Given our destination, and given that it is probably going to take about twenty years to get there, what is the advantage to this approach?
In 2000, the cycling modal share on Edinburgh's major roads was 0.43%; in 2012, it was 0.53% (source).
Are you worried that laying down repeat markers on the road surface would set a bad precedent? Cyclingmollie, this is everyone's concern. But we cannot allow our fears to become bigger than our dreams. We have to have faith in the process.
Posted 10 years ago # -
@cm You mean the sort of quiet-LOUD-quiet thing NCN1 does where it crosses Newhailes Road between the away-from-road bit from QMU and the away-from-road bit to Brunstane?
Posted 10 years ago # -
@wingpig: "quiet-LOUD-quiet thing NCN1 does"
Ha, NCN is to cycle paths what the Pixies are to rock music.
@Simon Parker The NCN doesn't work. For example, at Brunstane there's a footbridge. That will stop anyone without the strength to lift their bike up them. I'm not going to describe the near misses my children have experienced on the "LOUD" bits. My fear for my children's safety is quite a bit bigger than my dreams of better cycling provision.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Here we are, Cyclingmollie, where we are. And the thing about it is, you see, we need to be strong. Because we are the pioneers, Cyclingmollie, we are leading the way.
I have just read about "the mayhem caused by selfish parents". Oh yes, the times they are a-changing.
My favourite accountant says:
Grapes are not harvested from thorn trees, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they yield no fruit. Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit.
And now, please, let me quote you Ritt Bjerregaard one more time:
The essential thing is to take the first step because, whilst the use of the bicycle is a choice for the individual, it is essential to launch the process by which your city builds on the initiatives and habits of some of your fellow citizens for a healthier urban environment.
One day, cycling will be perfectly normal for lots and lots of people, Cyclingmollie. But in order to get to this point, it is essential that the authorities launch the process.
The process is robust, Cyclingmollie. The process is proven to work. We need to have faith in it. We need to be strong.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Morning all,
I awoke with a thought in my head ... Taken from the PoP manifesto, a quote by Alasdair Gray:
"Work as if you are in the early days of a better nation."
Posted 10 years ago # -
"
The process is proven to work. We need to have faith in it.
"Is this the bit where you pull the rabbit from the hat, and show us the kpi's from the 10 other cities and towns you did this with (or was it 8? Didn't go back through thread to check numbers you quoted) that show this system does work, perhaps even a modest 15% increase in modal share in those towns would prove that the system works, yes?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Hello, my name is Tilly, I am a Hunger Games fan and I love reading and cycling. I am 12 years old and my favourite subject in school, is Art.
My Uncle Simon has been working on this project for 15 years!!! Yes 15 years!!! He is very clever man who has put his life into his work. He works on it everyday going to bed at 01:00am, on extreme occasions. When me and my Brothers are outside playing on our bikes, our parents are very cool about it. Where we live there are safe cycle routes, be cool man.
I believe that if we just give this plan a go, even if it gets of to a bad start, if we keep on going and trying it will work. (I personally think you guys are a bit
jealous! That you haven't come up with this plan, thats why your picking on little parts that don't matter. Just got poned!!!)
We can't keep sitting around while things just get worse, we have to act!!!
thank you
Tilly :) :) :) :) :)Posted 10 years ago # -
That's a lovely statement from Tilly. :)
Can you provide a link to the KPI's? You must have some before/after measurements from the previous projects that you implemented? How do you know it worked otherwise, and is worth dedicating more time to? That 15 years can't (surely) have been spent on faith alone.
ps. your dedication to this project is admirable.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Baldcyclist,
The process which Ritt Bjerregaard said it was essential to launch has not been tried in the UK before! It is tried and tested on the continent, not here. If it had have been tried here before, things would be different here now.
We can't keep doing bits and pieces. That patently does not work. It's network first, and then a separation of functions.
Simon
Posted 10 years ago # -
P.S. Tilly lives in Reigate, Surrey, one of the most car-sodden places in the world. When she and her brothers cycle to the park, say - they walk to school - it's pavement all the way.
Posted 10 years ago # -
The world is missing our wisdom.
"
Cycling advocacy for the past half-century has been on the back foot, so busy complaining, criticising and protesting it never paused to build – let alone proselytize – progressive visions of an alternative society with the bicycle at its heart.
"
We have learned how to fit cycling into other agendas rather than develop agendas of our own. We try particularly to sell cycling in ways most likely to resonate with institutional agendas – ‘cycling cuts congestion, pollution and carbon emissions’; ‘cycling increases health and fitness, and reduces obesity’. We try to make cycling make sense to others, but at what cost?
"
So we need to develop our visions and move beyond the shame of speaking them. Find our voice. Of course we must compromise – to make cycling big requires working with others, and that inevitably entails compromise. But unless they know what we really stand for, those others can’t know by how much we’re compromising.
"
We believe bikes should replace cars. We think half of all journeys could easily be made by bike. We see a bicycle-based society as better than a car-based one. We look forward to the time when bicycles proliferate as cars disappear and die.
"
Just one example – the conversion of two lanes of a dual-carriageway’s four into top-notch space for cycling. Howls of protest, obviously. But the prospects of such change have to be higher the more people see them as forming part of an ongoing societal project to re-design our cities away from cars towards bicycles. The more people can see and understand the bigger picture, the more supportive they will be.
"
Others lack visions for cycling because we’ve not even tried to sell them ours. Until we do, cycling will keep getting incorporated – where it gets incorporated at all – in trivial, tokenistic ways – in ways that make sense to those without visions of mass cycling. They’ll keep giving cycling at most a little because they have learnt and assume that a little is enough. And we as advocates will continue to feel that cycling’s being sold seriously short.
"
Dave Horton, New Cycling Stories
Posted 10 years ago # -
http://cycle-action-network.webs.com/
This you too?
Posted 10 years ago # -
No, it's not. What do you think?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Is it me or has this thread gone more batshit crazy than usual for CCE? I'm just home from the pub so it could easily be me.
Do 12 year olds even say "be cool man"? And isn't poned spelled p'wned or pwned?
My bad. Poned is actually in the urban dictionary
Posted 10 years ago # -
The proposed design for Edinburgh currently has 25 routes (not including the circular route). How many ways are there to code so many routes? Numbers? Well, sure, but what's good about numbers? One colour per route? No. There are not enough colours. Anything else? Not really.
So there is no viable alternative to compass colours. More than this, compass colours are useful without a map! More than this, the map would be legible to more people (when compared to the current designs), and small enough to fit in a back pocket.
Okay, how many ways are there to develop an amenable cycling infrastructure? There are two. Top-down (global or holistic) or bottom-up (adjustment or piecemeal). Does the bottom-up approach work? If the last thirty-five years is any guide, no, not very well. What about the top-down approach? It's the recommended approach from the continent, but it's never been tried before in this country.
It is now three weeks since I first wrote to Spokes and PoP. I have written to them again since. They have not yet replied.
They should reply, shouldn't they? They are in receipt of a proposal which has been thoroughly peer-reviewed, after all.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"It's the recommended approach from the continent, but it's never been tried before in this country."
To save trawling back through this thread, please list countries/cities where this has been done and (if possible) some idea of how long the process took in each place and the results - more cycling (people and mileage) fewer accidents etc.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Thoroughly?
Posted 10 years ago # -
Denmark, Netherlands, Germany and Portland. How long does it take? The Dutch started 41 years ago, and they still haven't finished.
Thoroughly as in 234 posts, and not a word against.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not all those 234 posts have been posted as a direct positive.
I thought you meant that your map had been thoroughly peer-reviewed.Posted 10 years ago # -
This thread does not constitute a peer-review by any means. And of course peer review is not perfect either.
Posted 10 years ago # -
"The Dutch started 41 years ago, and they still haven't finished"
Well yes, so why the idea that a 'network could be introduced in Edinburgh in weeks'?
This has caused some people to dismiss the good points of what you are trying to do...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Not all those 234 posts have been posted as a direct positive. I thought you meant that your map had been thoroughly peer-reviewed.
I meant the (five-step) process, the one which Ritt Bjerregaard said it was essential to launch. There hasn't been a word said against this process. Not a word. I have asked people, What's the better plan? Silence. I have already reported what Roger Geffen from CTC thought about it. Here's a quick reminder:
Just to say I like your 5-step process – that seems to me to make a lot of sense.
* * * This thread does not constitute a peer-review by any means. And of course peer review is not perfect either.
According to Sir Karl Popper (positivism), "The scientific status of a theory is its falsifiability, or refutability, or testability."
This thread does not constitute a peer-review, you say? Well okay. In that case, would you be reassured to know that Professor John Parkin from UWE Bristol has described my proposal as "technically flawless"?
* * * The idea that a 'network could be introduced in Edinburgh in weeks' has caused some people to dismiss the good points of what you are trying to do.
When I started this thread, I concluded my opening comment thus:
Once the network has been planned and studied, the next step would be to "introduce" it so that it works. Such a network might very well be suitable only for about 10% of the population, but it is far easier to set about providing for the majority of potential cyclists working from within the framework provided by a functioning cycle network, and given a cycling modal share of about 8%, say.
Either way - top-down or bottom-up - you need to be thinking something like twenty years (the Dutch programme these things to work in twenty-year cycles).
Now, as it happens, I believe that a network could be introduced in a few weeks. I even think it could be done in just one day.
Regardless ... "Only by studying a cycle route network will it be possible to truly grasp the situation" (Cycling: the way ahead, page 41).
I have written to Spokes and PoP, emphasising that I would like to work cooperatively on this. I have made it known to them that I have the (GeoVation-funded) software to enable a study of the proposed Cycle Network. I am waiting to hear back from them.
Posted 10 years ago # -
Please ignore the entirety of this post.
Glad that's settled at last. Best of luck, and do please let us know when the network is implemented so that we know where to look for it.
If there is a figure with less connection to an Edinburgh cycle network than Karl Popper, I can't bring their name to mind for the moment. Tycho Brahe? Babe Ruth? Tirukkannapuram Vijayaraghavan? Michel Lotito?
Please post your 'plan to live' for this project. The plan should include as a minimum;
1) a comprehensive set of deliverables
2) all financial, physical and human resources available for delivery
3) all tasks required for delivery, each one allocated a 'who','how','where' and 'when'
4) budget per task
5) risk register with controls and mitigation
6) criteria for final sign-offMay I suggest yellow bricks as the standard surface for the network's paths?
Spokes make money by selling their cycle network map, Pedal on Parliament is a once a year mass jamboree requiring lots of preparatory work from an informal group of volunteers. I think you might be waiting a wee whiley for that reply.
I wonder if I sharpen that pencil on my desk a bit more I could tattoo a bicycle on the back of my left hand...
Posted 10 years ago # -
Less than a day even. As a leap of faith it takes just a moment. In that sense you remind me of other campaigners who blame lack of progress in cycle provision on, for example, lycra, cycle-helmets, high-vis, adherence to the advice in Cyclecraft and non-standard specialist bikes. Adopting the tropes of a cycling culture does not create a cycling culture. It just creates a tension between the converted and the unconvinced. Please do try to push your ideas, you may be right. I don't know. But how do people find out if they are in the 10% if not by trying the routes and, nine times out of ten, discovering that it's not designed for their needs. or their children's? Sounds terribly off-putting.
Posted 10 years ago #
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