2 New Dropped Kerbs on Craigs Road « CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum

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2 New Dropped Kerbs on Craigs Road

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Started 10 years ago by HankChief
Latest reply from boothym

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Dropped Kerb Craigs Road

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HankChief
Member

Good news...to those who live in a very specific bit of the Western suburbs...

2 new dropped Kerbs are being put in at the end of the path network through East Craigs here and one further up on the opposite side of the road to the new 'Moreland View' road which has a cut through to the new Burnbrae houses.

I hadn't heard anything about these going in, but can see the benefits for both and will be using them. It's good to see CEC putting these sort of things in - it should be encouraged.

For the first one to be really useful though, they would need to tackle the 6 steps on the South end of the path through the school fields at North Gyle Loan.

Once they have done that we could have a nice safe route from East Craigs to South Gyle (CycleStreet - Quietest option)

Posted 10 years ago #
Kenny
Member

I'm bemused about the first one you've mentioned. I ran past it this evening and they seem to have taken away the black fence at the end of the path, which is a safety device to prevent, for example, young children accidentally running or cycling on to the Craigs Road from the path. I didn't spot the dropped kerb, but I'm guessing it's where they have removed the black fence?

You're right about the 6 steps being annoying. When I'm cycling down to the Gyle, I'd definitely take that route if those steps were not there, even though it's really not that difficult to jump off to carry the bike up/down the steps.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

"it's really not that difficult to jump off to carry the bike up/down the steps"

It is when you've got a loaded tandem or a tag-a-long...

I appreciate I'm not the norm (who is?!), but little hindrances like these don't help people like me become the norm.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

The barrier point is an interesting one.

You have competing priorities:

Cyclists who want a clear path through without a lot of deviation - especially if they have large & unwieldy bikes.

Pedestrians (especially the young) who want some form of physical barrier to avoid them running onto the road. That location being opposite a school has a lot of child pedestrian traffic.

Not sure whether there is a solution for both, without some form of compromise. When they have finished I'll take a photo of what they have done.

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Railings are supposed to be 'safety' devices, but neither cycling nor pedestrian activists want them. Cyclists because they can be actively dangerous as well as block their way. Pedestrian associations because they make roads look unfriendly and reinforce this idea that pedestrians need to be corralled into little space and not get in the way of cars.

The council has a policy of removing railings, but has done very little of it. And I've been told that railings across from schools are particularly unlikely to be removed (eg viewforth/Montpelier, where removal of the curb and replacement of railing with bollards would improve permeability).

So, it is interesting if they have removed these. Any chance of a pic hankchief? I'm not familiar with the area and finding it hard to follow.

Posted 10 years ago #
Kenny
Member

It is when you've got a loaded tandem or a tag-a-long...

Aye, fair point, and I feel much the same way when I have the panniers loaded after a visit to the Gyle.

SRD, I will likely be sent out with the dogs later, so will attempt to get a picture. It'll be dark, mind you, so may not be that good.

Posted 10 years ago #
cb
Member

There is quite a network of paths in between East Craigs and Barnton. Somewhat Livingston-esque with a few underpasses too. You can cycle from Barntongate to HC's 1st photo without crossing a road.
Fixing the steps in the 2nd photo looks doable. I wonder who owns the land immediately to the west?

Posted 10 years ago #
Kenny
Member

I think that may be part of the school grounds. Tbh, it is difficult to tell what belongs to the school.

Photos, but as I say, it was dark:

I love the idea of putting in the dropped kerb, but i feel they have put it in completely the wrong place. The pavement at the end of the path is going down hill to the left, towards the high school, and they have put the gap to the left, i.e. if a child on their bike came to the end of the path, they would naturally start to go left because it is downhill slightly, and thus straight on to the road. If CEC don't want fences any more, they should have just removed the whole thing. Instead, they have removed one of the most important bits of the fence, and left a lot of useless fence there.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Thanks mkns. Your nocturnal photography is better than mine...

I agree with you on removing the wrong bit of the barrier. I wonder how they came to that decision - maybe to do with the position of the speed cushion.

Thinking of the 6 steps on the Southern end of the cut through the school grounds. It really should be changed to a ramp. The bit of land to the West is just waste land, so should be relatively straightforward to change.

If it was sorted it would allow better access to the only toucan crossing of the A8 between Haymarket and the airport. I was quite staggered when I realised there wasn't any others.
It reduces the use of such a crossing if within 400m you have to get off and lift your bike...

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Thanks both. Have now figured out why I found hankchief's original so confusing - I was looking at the ' balanced route' not the 'quiet route' so the street names didn't make any sense.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Here are some daylight(ish) photos

You can see the High School in the background, with the onward path by the railings in the right hand side of the school entrance.

Craigs Road by HankChief, on Flickr

And here you can see the slope down the left that mkns refers to

Craigs Road by HankChief, on Flickr

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Breaking News...and remember This is Edinburgh

The gap in railing pictured above have now been replaced by a padlocked metal gate...

Craigs Road dropped kerb by HankChief, on Flickr

Now I can only assume that this was always the plan as they had left some cones and a barrier after the first visit and they were just giving themselves a better access point to drive their vans up and down the paths to empty the bins (There isn't a great access, with very few dropped kerbs and they regularly tear up the grass as they attempt to turn the vans around)

I did write to my councillors commending them for putting in the dropped kerb, pointing out the safety concern mkns raised and recommending that the put a ramp by the 6 steps give a joined up route.

I got a couple of replies that they were passing my email on to the cycle team and an acknowledgement from the West Edinburgh Team, but no detailed response.

I feel another email coming on...

TIE..

Posted 10 years ago #
fimm
Member

You mean, they're put in a dropped kerb so that vans can access the cycle path?

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

Yep!

There are 3 or 4 bins that need emptying - so they have to drive a big van up the cycle path.

Posted 10 years ago #
Kenny
Member

And thus, the dropped kerb can no longer be used by cyclists and wheelchair users as the gate will be locked shut, I assume?

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

And thus, the dropped kerb can no longer be used by cyclists and wheelchair users as the gate will be locked shut, I assume?

It would appear so... I have some daylight photos below which show the shiny new padlock to stop anyone else using it...

Craigs Road by HankChief, on Flickr

Craigs Road by HankChief, on Flickr

Posted 10 years ago #
Kenny
Member

Yes indeed - I spotted this while wandering back from the airport late this afternoon. I think it is therefore fairly conclusive that this dropped kerb is indeed for vehicular access up the path.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

So, I've had a response from the Council and as expected...

The dropped kerb opposite Craigmount High School at the entrance to the path network through East Craigs was installed to allow access to the Ground Maintenance Team while carrying out the ongoing gate works; I can advise that it is not a pedestrian crossing.

The problem is that I'm not a pedestrian, I'm on a bike. There is a pedestrian crossing 60m up the hill and a zebra crossing 60m down the hill, neither of which I can use on a bike and neither of which are convenient if I want to go straight across to the path through the school grounds.

The thing that gets me about this is the East Craigs path network has many entrances & exits but a lot of these don't have accessible dropped kerbs. They could have taken the opportunity to solve one of these at the same time as giving themselves better access.

For my response, I'm thinking of logging just how few dropped kerbs there are around East Craigs. Anyone recommenced a mapping tool that I could put a red/amber/green flag on each location?

On the subject of replacing the 6 steps to the South of Craigmount HS, they have forwarded my request onto AMEY as it is their responsibility because it is a Public Private Partnership School. Not sure if this is good news or not...

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"because it is a Public Private Partnership School. Not sure if this is good news or not"

Almost certainly not!

"

Amey manages infrastructure & public services across the UK. Tweeting here is the Amey press office, contact us on press.office@amey.co.uk/01865 713 240

"

https://www.twitter.com/Ameyplc

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"

Cycling Edinburgh (@CyclingEdin)
18/02/2014 22:27
New @Edinburgh_CC dropped kerb not for pedestrians or cyclists

Shame really

citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.…

@LAHinds @CllrJimOrr @AndrewDBurns

"

"

Lesley Hinds (@LAHinds)
18/02/2014 22:45
@CyclingEdin @Edinburgh_CC @CllrJimOrr @AndrewDBurns let me ask about this area

"

Posted 10 years ago #
smsm1
Member

@HankChief You could map all the locations where the dropped kerbs don't exist on Cyclescape. Adding a tag to each issue of for example dropped-kerb will mean that you can find all issues relating to the dropped kerbs.

Posted 10 years ago #
smsm1
Member

Also I thought that railings were getting removed all over the place for improved safety, rather than installing them. Yeah it means that people can run off the end of the path and into the path of cars. Also drivers go faster in their cars as they think it's safe to do so. Walkers and cyclists using the path are also more careful if there is no barrier, thus overall safety improves when there aren't any barriers. The problem of wrapping the population in cotton wool with all the safety measures, is that people don't learn the dangerous situations. I'm not suggesting no safety measures, just finding the right balance).

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

@smsm1 - Thanks - I've put a couple up on Cyclescape so far. I'll need to do a survey of the other entry/exit points but there are lots (40+) and most seem to have been built without dropped kerbs - it then just becomes an issue of whether there is a convenient driveway nearby or not.

Apols if Cyclescape gets a bit swamped...

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

And while I remember, I'm still yet to use the dropped kerb further up Craigs Road (opposite Moreland View) as it has always had cars parked on it.

Hopefully some parking restrictions will be put in place to solve that though...

Posted 10 years ago #
smsm1
Member

Don't worry about swamping Cyclescape, lots of little specific issues is exactly what it's designed for.

Posted 10 years ago #
chdot
Admin

"Don't worry about swamping Cyclescape, lots of little specific issues is exactly what it's designed for."

Maybe more people will start using it!

Certainly ought to be very useful.

Posted 10 years ago #
slowcoach
Member

If there do have to be railings, they should probably be visirail or similar (as on the school side of the road) so they don't block visibility so much. Also, are the gates going to block the footway or carriageway when they are left open?
To slow children running/biking from the side path who might go over the footway onto the road without stopping, maybe a staggered barrier could be put near the back of the footway, where it doesn't interfere with visibility between the footway and carriageway.

Posted 10 years ago #
HankChief
Member

So I had a little trip round East Craigs tonight...

Now the Path Network has many branches and stems and I went looking for dropped kerbs.

I found six and about the same number of conveniently placed driveways.

I also found 24 exits / entrances to the network, where there wasn't a dropped kerb (I also put a few on that are needed but not connected to the ECPN)

I have mapped them on cyclescape.

This should give some understanding of the problems that cyclists, wheelchair users and pram pushers have when negotiating around East Craigs.

I could have also gone looking for pavements that don't have dropped kerbs at the junctions, but that would have taken me much longer to map.

There must have been something in 1970/80 planning that thought dropped kerbs weren't needed.

Now, I'm not saying that it's sensible to put in all 24 of the dropped kerbs, but an assessment of the ones which are most needed could/should be carried out and a prioritisation put in place.

However, when an opportunity arises where you can give better access to active travellers and it isn't taken it is frustrating to say the least.

Posted 10 years ago #
SRD
Moderator

Hankchief - really worth taking these to your NP, plus your councillors, plus your community council.

Posted 10 years ago #
kaputnik
Moderator

Now, I'm not saying that it's sensible to put in all 24 of the dropped kerbs,

Why not? At ~£1000 a pop, it would be £24k well spent for all. One less council pool car

Posted 10 years ago #