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"extensive facilities for cyclists" (and expensive too!) - St. James 'Quarter'

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The City of Edinburgh Council has worked closely with TH Real Estate to develop a project that has sustainability at its core. The plans include a new combined cooling, heat and power centre, electric car charging points, extensive facilities for cyclists, photovoltaic panels, solar tubes and a city car club.

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/1526/council_joins_forces_with_scottish_government

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Edinburgh Council (@Edinburgh_CC)
    29/04/2014 09:26
    St James Quarter set to be transformed thanks to Council and Scottish Government funding agmt

    http://bit.ly/QTDxEJ

    http://pic.twitter.com/TIqgDR5DJB

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    Artist's impression. John Lewis no more?

    In the distance it is possible to discern that the plans still involve a great big mahoosive roundabout on Picardy Place, just a rounded edge triangular shaped one instead of the current circular variety. Is that better? No sign of any traffic signals on Picardy Place: let's assume the architect "forgot" those, eh?

    Also, not a single change to Leith Street. No cycle lanes, still two lanes of motor traffic down, one traffic and one bus lane up. How are cyclists supposed to get to the St James Quarter to use the "extensive facilities"? Helicopter?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    John Lewis is staying 'as is', as far as I know.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. fimm
    Member

    "facilities for cyclists" = 3 bike racks and 20 "No Cycling" signs....

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. chdot
    Admin

    This may or may not be part of plan -

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11765

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. chdot
    Admin

  8. crowriver
    Member

    "Boasting 42,500 square metres of shopping space over three sweeping crescent-shaped levels, the development will also include a swathe of premium office space, an apart-hotel, a theatre and 138 flats with spectacular views. A central pillar of the £850 million masterplan is a huge upmarket hotel – one of two stellar resorts featured in designs – capped with a glass ceiling that is likely to house a roof-top restaurant with spectacular panoramic vistas."

    No mention of anything transport-related. Aha...

    "Five major buildings dominate the new “St James Quarter”, but alfresco and glazed-roof shopping precincts will divide up the development which also contain three substantial public spaces and a square. With the St James Centre gone, retail space in its replacement will nearly double.

    Surrounding areas such as Leith Street, Little King Street and Picardy Place are set for major facelifts including creation of a public transport interchange.

    The John Lewis building will remain untouched despite construction work which is due to start next year, running until 2021."

    ...cycling? ...no mention. Ah well.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. acsimpson
    Member

    I'm trying to work out what they mean by "capped with a glass ceiling that is likely to house a roof-top restaurant..."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. kaputnik
    Moderator

    John Lewis is staying 'as is'

    Mostly it's a much later addition by Basil Spence Partners, clad in sandstone and not part of the much loathed concrete St. James Centre / New St. Andrew House monolith.

    I did feedback quite a few cycling-related points in the open day for the Picary Place Trianglabout hotel thing.

    a theatre

    Spence's original plans for the site included a Scottish Opera House, something that failed to be achieved on a number of occassions in Edinburgh.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "
    Greater emphasis would be placed upon the status of pedestrians and cyclists within the heirarchy of modes of transport; the development would have a far better degree of permeability through the quarter than at present, with north- south and east-west routes creating an attractive environment that would encourage these forms of movement, particularly pedestrian traffic. The location of the galleria would complete the retail 'loop' of George Street and Multrees Walk with the St James Quarter, and form a vital component in delivering the aspirations of the development brief.

    Cycle parking would be provided within the underground parking levels and 'at grade' at locations around the development. The positioning and numbers of cycle parking would be agreed as part of the reserved matters.

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/2649/st_james_centre_edinburgh

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. crowriver
    Member

    I noted the following in the Conditions imposed by Council in granting permission, including "reserved matters" (my bold):

    "
    notwithstanding the approved plan (Drawing Number SJQ(FP)002 Rev:A) and the principle of two means of access being accepted, the limits of deviation on Leith Street to provide vehicular access/egress are reserved for further consideration.

    before development starts, further applications shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Planning Authority in respect of the following reserved matters:
    (i) Number of residential/commercial/business units to be developed;
    (ii) The precise location and extent of individual uses;
    (iii) The design of all external features and glazing specifications
    (including acoustic capabilities), all external materials and finishes, including their colour;
    (iv) The type, location and numbers of cycle parking facilities for both staff/guests and customers. All cycle parking to be in accordance with the Council's parking standards.
    (v) Details, location and numbers of showers and locker facilities;
    (vi) Signing of pedestrian and cycle access routes to/from and through the development ;
    (vii) Pedestrian and cycle access arrangements, including access through the development ;
    (viii) The size and layout of the car parking bays;
    (ix) Amendments or any treatment to adopted roads or footways;
    (x) Location of car park venting/exhaust termination;

    the number of car parking spaces shall be restricted to a maximum of 1800 spaces

    Contributions for the development will be negotiated to include the following:
    Tram system
    City Car Club
    Variable message Signing
    Traffic Orders

    "

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. DaveC
    Member

    This company already own Multrees Walk. For an example of how they treat cyclists see the bollards at the entrance to Multrees Walk.

    http://goo.gl/maps/lhBQg

    (hint - no cycling signs on every bollard)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. crowriver
    Member

    Great. So, cycling "facilities" and a choice of routes to get there:

    - Navigate tramlines on York Place: accident waiting to happen.
    - Mix it with the buses, taxis, HGVs etc. piling down Leith Street as fast as gravity and engines will allow, turn just before where King James Thistle currently located: accident waiting to happen.
    - Traverse Multrees Walk: "We'll have no cyclists here!"
    - Brave Picardy Place triangleabout, cross at green man, up Wee King Street the wrong way: accident waiting to happen, plus inconvenient, plus some illegal riding.
    - Brave Picardy Place triangleabout, up Cathedral Place: accident waiting to happen, plus cobbles.
    - Brave Picardy Place triangleabout, along York Place, avoiding tram tracks: accident waiting to happen, but probably the least worst.

    I'm sure the employees of all the retailers will be queing up to cycle to work. Cycling shoppers will be made to feel welcome, as long as they arrive still in one piece, and without incurring the wrath of the Multrees Walk lynch mob.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. SRD
    Moderator

    It's a big challenge but I have no doubt we can make it better. council is very aware that their schemes for george street make no sense without connections up. there have been noises about connections to leith walk that must have been in knowledge of this proposal.

    I have faith that with our combined pester power - and the fact that we have common sense and policy on our side - we can make it better.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. Focus
    Member

    Well the cycle parking facilities can hardly be worse than they are now. Once you can find them, you then have to negotiate everyone queueing at the bus stop in Leith St before precariously balancing your bike on a sheer slope next to the hotel car park. The one time I've used that 'facility' as soon as I unlocked my bike it toppled down onto the tarmac below, taking chunks out of the paintwork and crank. Not amused.

    As for the revamped shopping experience, on the plus side it could be Edinburgh's compact version of Belfast's Victoria Square, which is a lovely facility. The downside is if units start becoming empty after a couple of years, as has happened at Victoria Square..

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. Klaxon
    Member

    Going by the artist's impression there's no attempt to improve Leith St - still a cavernous dual carriageway with central reservation.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. crowriver
    Member

    Flythrough computer simulation (helicopter view) here.

    No sign of the triangleabout hotel. Wee King Street and Cathedral Place pedestrianised by the looks of it. Only road access via access to bus station from York Place, for multi-storey parking.

    Not so bad. I presume cyclists will be mixing it with pedestrians then? If that's allowed, of course (see Multrees Walk).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. chdot
    Admin

  20. cb
    Member

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/underground-car-park-for-st-james-quarter-1-3395318

    "A huge underground car park would be built beneath the new St James Quarter as part of the £850 million regeneration masterplan – but environmental campaigners have vowed to fight to block it.

    With 1800 bays, the new multi-level facility would have space for three times as many cars as the current St James Centre car parks, in a move designed to conveniently accommodate the vast increase in shoppers expected to be drawn to the new shopping and leisure district."

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. crowriver
    Member

    space for three times as many cars as the current St James Centre car parks

    Three times as many cars on Leith Street/Picardy Place/York Place. Oh joy.

    Can we expect a corresponding reduction in on-street parking nearby? Y'know, to fit in those segregated bike lanes cyclists will need to avoid being crushed by the increase in traffic.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "would have space for three times as many cars as the current St James Centre car parks"

    And apparently the multi-storey on the other side of Leith Street is underused.

    I have a belief (fantasy?) that a rebuild could(?) allow direct access to the bus station from Picardy Place.

    With a tram stop and bus station 'on site' the last thing the Council/Planners should be concerned about is - "move designed to conveniently accommodate the vast increase in shoppers expected to be drawn to the new shopping and leisure district" AND giving it planning permission!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So a city centre shopping mall within 100m of a mainline railway station, 2 tram stops, extensive bus stops and an existing 1,000 space car park and yet there's plans for another 1,800?!

    Which roads do these developers expect can accomodate all these journeys?

    According to the online counter, Omni Centre car park is currently 75% unoccupied. St. James Centre park is 18% empty just now. Castle Terrace appears to be the only full car park in the city centre on any given weekday. Guess we need more parking spaces, right? Encourage more valuable motoring trips into the heart of an already polluted city centre?

    T.I.E.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    "Which roads do these developers expect can accomodate all these journeys?"

    The Bridges, Leith Street, York Place, Queen Street.

    But that's not the developers' problem...

    It's about 'economic development and benefits to the City', innit.

    BUT before 'we' get too 'nimbyistic', 'we' 'approve of' city centre rather than out-of-town'...

    HOWEVER this is a classic example of CEC being given the chance (opportunity) to make some very positive leads/decisions on the whole business of 'living cities', 'people before cars', 'active travel ' etc.

    Will it be bold?

    Possibly.

    This shouldn't even have to be about 'ideology', the business case(s) for the benefits of 'better pedestrian environments and the effects on business' are stacking up.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. neddie
    Member

    Perhaps 1800 is their 'first shot' at the negotiation, knowing that the council will* try to reduce it.

    *Don't quote me on that - TIE

    If the Omni Centre car park is underused, that can only be because prices are too high.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. crowriver
    Member

    See above. In the planning conditions set by the Council when granting permission:

    "the number of car parking spaces shall be restricted to a maximum of 1800 spaces".

    Also:

    "before development starts, further applications shall be submitted to and approved in writing by the Planning Authority in respect of the following reserved matters:"

    Basically all the active travel stuff, and a bunch of other environmental issues.

    This is where there is room for "pressure" from "the cycling lobby". The upper limit of car parking is not up for discussion (though the developer may opt for fewer spaces - yeah right).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. acsimpson
    Member

    Perhaps they should be required to install one secure cycle space for each car parking space.

    If 1800 new spaces there meant a substantial amount of existing on street parking was no longer required then I could see the argument for it, however I can't see this being a compromise the council is likely to make.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. crowriver
    Member

    The Council are asking to borow £61 million to fund this in order that it happens. Currently being discussed at Council meeting. Live updates here.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. acsimpson
    Member

    Apparently £130m isn't enough profit for the private developers and so the council now needs to pay them extra to get it built? :-0

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. crowriver
    Member

    All seems a bit "murky". Caltongate Mk II?

    Posted 9 years ago #

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