CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

Portobello Promenade

(105 posts)

12…4

  1. tk
    Member

    On a few of the local Portobello forums and Facebook pages there has been a lot of discussion about cycling on the promenade. In particular, a lot of locals with children and/or dogs feel that the majority of cyclists are irresponsible and cycle too fast along this shared use core path.

    I am aware that the Community Council are looking into cycling access at the moment and are in the process of arranging site visits from the council cycling officer and from Spokes to try and find a solution. Likewise it appears there has been a volume of complaints to the council and police about cyclists speed, behaviour and near misses. A 5mph speed limit is being mooted by some, there has been talk of a ban and others actually want a cycle path so they can feel safer on the pedestrian side.

    These debates are often driven by emotion and luckily I think the community council member looking into it is fairly sensible as he's a cyclist himself. However, it does appear the number of irresponsible cyclists and the scale of the issue may be being misrepresented and its easy for the council to see a lot of complaints and have nothing to balance this with.

    I'd personally be in favour of a defined path like the Meadows has, both as a cyclist and pedestrian (although tactiles covered in sand would be a slippery issue). I am concerned that our voice as individuals may not be heard in this debate and the use of the promenade may be restricted or some crazy solution (chicanes along the length?) be enacted. Is there anything we can do as a group to balance the debate?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  2. tammytroot
    Member

    Can't say I have been aware of this "chatter" despite being a Porty resident for most of my life.
    The trouble with a painted line on the prom is one of access to the beach. Also, the prom is so terrifically busy on a nice day that no one would pay any attention to which side of the line one was on. I suspect it will be the same old lot which complained previously. A small vocal minority.
    As a regular user of the prom I have never personally witnessed ANY irresponsible cycling.
    I have however witnessed lots of out of control dogs (and adults and children).
    It's supposed to be a shared space, as long as everyone understands that, there is no problem.
    If you want to PM me the name of the CC member looking into this I will be happy to let them know my views.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  3. twq
    Member

    I'm with you @tammytroot, I've never seen any dangerous cycling there. All the complaints happen on sunny days when it gets busy (although I imagine the number of cyclists stays about the same!)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  4. wingpig
    Member

    Duplicate.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  5. wingpig
    Member

    http://forum.talkporty.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2564&hilit=prom+bike

    Might be a newer thread somewhere..

    Posted 10 years ago #

  6. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Many, many threads on CCE relating to Portobello Promenade.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=3941

    A 5mph speed limit would be a strong disincentive to cycling, given that it's also a Core Path. "Cyclists dismount" would be as fast a mode of transportation.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  7. acsimpson
    Member

    Would a 5mph speed limit be enforceable?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  8. chdot
    Admin

    No, or legal(?)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  9. tk
    Member

    This is quite interesting - it's the council legal discussion on access rights. http://forum.talkporty.org/download/file.php?id=153

    Posted 10 years ago #

  10. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I've seen a cyclist collide with a child on the Prom. The child ran out in front of the cyclist. I suppose neither was expecting the other to be there. I've also ridden through the fallout left behind by a nutcase cyclist using the Prom as a high-speed slalom: people shouting, moaning about cyclists. But most ride perfectly sensibly.

    I just ride along it slowly. Why hurry - it's one of the nicest rides in Edinburgh?

    Posted 10 years ago #

  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    tk, the last paragraph in that document is quite interesting. I wonder if it might apply in respect of the usability (vs. 'interference') of the Broomhouse/Stenhouse path.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  12. custard
    Member

    I have cycled along the prom many times.
    I have walked along more. I think the issue comes in the speed difference. A moderate pace on the bike can seem very fast to a ped.
    I have also seen cyclists going too fast IMO.
    When there's peds on the prom,IMHO a cyclist shouldn't be going much faster than a walking pace.

    The Meadows path doesnt really translate to a prom solution. You have traffic mainly in a set direction in the Meadows. On the prom people are all over the shop from the beach/prom/homes/shops

    Posted 10 years ago #

  13. wangi
    Member

    "fairly sensible as he's a cyclist himself"
    Thanks ;)

    And if anyone wants to feed in to this - you can email me via the PCC email address: secretary@portobellocc.org

    Posted 10 years ago #

  14. Morningsider
    Member

    I can't see how you can have enforceable speed limits for bikes. There is no requirement for a bike to have a speedometer, speed limits on roads only apply to motorised vehicles and speeding offences only apply to motorists.

    Going too quickly, the definition of which would depend on the circumstances, could be considered careless or inconsiderate cycling in some instances - like tanking down the Prom when it is full of pedestrians.

    Arellcat - I think the parks thing is a bit of a red herring. If the Prom fell within the definition of a park (doubtful) then council park management rules would apply. These rules allow for responsible cycling - so effectively no change.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  15. tk
    Member

    My feedback on one of the Facebook threads after some research is worth posting here;

    I had a look last night and over lunch at the statistics gathered by the police (back to 2003) known as STATS19 on road accidents which include cyclist versus pedestrian accidents. Whilst I couldn't find any evidence of an accident on the prom other than a car vs cyclist at the bottom over Kings Road, I did see mention of one known accident elsewhere where a cyclist hit an old man coming out a garden gate.

    Looking back to the community council minutes from 2011 when the discussion of cycling on the Promenade took place. The police confirmed in the report at http://porty.org.uk/.../uploads/2013/10/pcc_nov_11.pdf that there had been no cycling related incidents on the Promenade in the last 9 months.

    Councillor Lawrence Marshall quotes that there have been very few accidents involving cycles on the prom yet many involving cycles on the roads in his letter to the Evening News at http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/.../no-simple...

    You can see on the map here http://www.cycleinjury.co.uk/map?y=all#main why cyclists are less keen to cycle on the road, particularly around the Town Hall where there are many accidents between motor vehicles and cyclists

    In terms of the legal background for allowing cycling, the legal advice the council commissioned for the core Path network is available at http://forum.talkporty.org/download/file.php?id=153

    Whilst near misses can obviously cause anguish and put other prom users off using this shared space, it seems from the data I have found that the risks to pedestrians and animals of an actual accident are incredibly low. One known accident in 10 years is far less than the number of accidents between pedestrians and cars on the high street where there is sole use pavement.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  16. tk
    Member

    Bornemouth tried to enforce bans and speed limits although I doubt they could be applied given the legal status of land use in Scotland - see http://www.bournemouth.gov.uk/LeisureCultureLibraries/SeafrontBeaches/BeachRegulations/CyclingontheSeafront.aspx

    I believe its not been very successful and they had to fit speed cameras showing cyclists speed so they could keep within the limit

    Posted 10 years ago #

  17. tk
    Member

    Custard - I feel that the Meadows path does translate if you consider the East/West Path. it has lots of busy crossings (Middle meadow walk, uni library etc) and people mill from the grass (the beach) to the town on the other side.

    In Porty, a cycle path would need to run on the beach side which would allow free access for walkers along the prom. There would need to be designated beach access points with a give way such as those at Middle Meadow walk (others the cyclists would have priority as per a pedestrian crossing the road). Likewise it would seem advisable that cyclists got some degree of priority to turn off the prom at a few designated locations.

    The major downside I see is the potential loss of table space for business and the loss of the Crepe van and ice Cream van areas unless they could be moved to wider parts of the Prom where queues would be less of an issue

    I'd love to see a trial of a designated path, perhaps with the temporary paint used to paint the dog fouling warnings on the prom. It would be very interesting to see if that changed peoples opinions and caused less grief on both sides

    Posted 10 years ago #

  18. tk
    Member

    Arellcat - I'm also wondering if the council legal document suggests that they no longer need to record Stats19 accident data as it may not be considered a road...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    The Prom is a completely different situation to the Meadows. In nice weather, folk are sitting outside at tables opposite cafes/pubs; folk are sitting on the sea wall with legs on what you would desihnate as a cycle path; bairns are toddling/walking/running/scooting/cycling all over the show; Families are 'promenading' 3, 4, 5 abreast at times; folk are just standing about in the middle of the Prom; then there are the joggers, dog walkers, and dogs off the lead everywhere.

    It is nothing like the Meadows at all really.

    Classic shared use and cyclists should slow down when the Prom is busy. It's really not a problem. Most peds seem used to bikes weaving slowly in and out of them.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  20. le_soigneur
    Member

    Quite a few commuters use the prom. Up to 6 months ago, I used Seafield Rd & Main St, both of which have poor surfaces, pinch points and unpredictable traffic.
    Seafield prom works great all the time as there is plenty of space for dogs/runners/cyclists and is the main reason I changed over. Trouble is, it dumps you on the prom and they haven't thought about a nice way to siphon you onto the main street without kerb jumping.
    So you are fed to the chaos that is Porty prom which is a different story, it is narrow, has pinch points, blind spots and congestion. Pedestrians resent not being able to sleepwalk 6 abreast and don't really want to share. Playing football across it, dogs on invisible 3m long leads (if at all), activities that could be done on the beach as the tide is out. Kids chucking sand, balls or stagnant water at cyclists.
    Classic CEC botch- a blind bottlneck at Seafield skew bridge, then a wide expanse at Seafield prom then funnel into Porty prom.
    Instead of what tk proposes on the beach side of the existing prom, I suggest that a separate path would need to be added. In Venice beach (CA), they run a dedicated meandering path on the foreshore for cyclists/joggers/skaters. The segregated boardwalk is for walkers/hawkers only. If CEC was serious, they have space to do this... the fact that the skew bridge bottleneck is not seen as an embarassment by them proves how serious they are (not).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  21. tk
    Member

    I don't think a prom cycle path is unfeasible but it would certainly change the character of the prom. I think le_soigneur has the best idea though and I believe it had been considered when the council had their waterfront master plan for a promenade running to Cramond. As part of that plan, they were going to create terraced areas extending on to the beach which would have allowed bars and restaurants somewhere for tables and chairs and created non sandy areas for people to sit and enjoy bbqs etc.

    If you look at many European cities on lakes or the sea they tend to have a boardwalk and a road on their waterfront where the road varies from a cycle path to a major highway. Businesses and hotels have their table area on the beach side, even in Stresa they had located their swimming pools there. Everyone knew that to access the pedestrianised area and beach you had to cross an area with traffic

    Likewise, I've seen breakwaters created that have a walking path which would help beach erosion, create a safe area for swimmers away from boats and jet skis (and be warmer) and allow more space for cycling on the promenade. A pavement could be created on the prom raised from the cycle lane so that nobody would have to walk out a garden gate into a cycling area.

    Examples:

    Altea, Spain with road behind parked cars -

    Stresa, Italy showing pedestrian boardwalk
    And here where you can see the pedestrian area in front of a straight road with cycle facilities

    Posted 10 years ago #

  22. neddie
    Member

    Strava KOM on NMW 24.7mph:

    http://www.strava.com/segments/7463225?filter=overall

    Say no more...

    Posted 10 years ago #

  23. tk
    Member

    Strava KOMs and leaderboards tell you very little about cycling. Not only is Strava a self selecting group that tends to be the faster cyclists but every leaderboard position is the best that person ever achieved. This a commuter who does the route slowly every day doesn't balance the club cyclist who at 6am on an empty path really pushed it. If a path is visibly clear and nobody is walking nearby then I see no reason why it shouldn't be ridden fast. Speed needs to be adjusted when it's busy of course but Strava doesn't show these efforts.

    I'm thinking about using the Python at http://ocfnash.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/mining-the-strava-data/ to pull in a segment and do a heat map histogram of speed versus distance along a segment. That way you could create the Prom as a segment and see how many efforts went at each speed (in maybe 2 km/h and 10m bin size).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  24. Dave
    Member

    Should we close an A-road to drivers because someone was convicted of doing ~140mph along it? This is about as meaningful as taking the fastest ever recorded time by bike (possibly at 4am on a deserted midsummer morning - or possibly during an event) and trying to talk about peak midsummer pedestrian loitering scenarios.

    Happily Strava does give us more useful data than just the max speed ever achieved. The record on the west side of the prom is over 32mph but the 85th percentile speed today was just over 17mph. We can probably live with 17mph I'm thinking - half the speed that people in Porty will drive past primary schools?

    Making this argument is impossible even with data, because the problem isn't really speeding cyclists (in fact, the idea that speeding cyclists could be a problem shows how desperately bad the general outlook in the UK is, out-group wise).

    Posted 10 years ago #

  25. Dave
    Member

    Strava KOM on NMW 24.7mph:

    Say no more...

    Amusingly, the average Strava cyclist on NMW today was doing... ~14.5mph (and one must presume that non-Strava riders are slower on the whole).

    Considering the design speed in general terms is 20mph (source: Sustrans), this indicates a terrific problem. I expect it's pandemonium on the scene? :)

    Posted 10 years ago #

  26. bdellar
    Member

    I commute via the Prom every day. On a sunny day, it is HOACHIN, and you just have to ride very very slowly, or stop, at the pinch points. There are kids, dogs, old folk, ice cream queues, beer drinkers, joggers etc etc, and I love it. It does mean I don't get home very quickly, but there you go.

    I have seen cyclists going WAY too fast on such days, and it's a mixture of young kids on jump bikes and BMXs, and MAMIL types. I think if you're used to road-riding, it can be hard to slow yourself down on a shared path.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  27. bdellar
    Member

    Having said that, MOST cyclists seem to ride quite sensibly.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  28. Roibeard
    Member

    Late to the discussion, I know, but perhaps worth adding that pedestrian/cyclist collisions are probably vastly under-reported.

    The many will involve no worse than picking oneself up, and dusting oneself off. Scrapes and bruises will be the result for some, and few will be reported to the police or appear in casualty.

    So low casualty figures will reflect the low risk of "serious" injury, not necessarily the frequency.

    As for the Prom, I did lead a SkyRide along there once on a sunny summer afternoon and it was a stupid route to attempt to take a pack of cyclists - walking it would have been more sensible once we got to Portobello, whereas Seafield was grand...

    Robert

    Posted 10 years ago #

  29. neddie
    Member

    I would say that the absolute maximum acceptable speed on NMW is 15mph at any time of day or night.

    Just because you think it's clear/deserted doesn't mean that there isn't a drunk, a dog or a child lurking in the trees that may run out, or something else unexpected.

    tk and Dave's arguments sound exactly like the ones used by motorists to justify speeding - it was night, the road was empty, my car has awesome brakes, I have better than average reactions, bla bla bla...

    It reminds me of a very good road safety advert of a motorist going round a corner too fast and meeting something unexpected. 3 times he/she manages to avoid it. On the 4th occasion it ends in disaster.

    Posted 10 years ago #

  30. tammytroot
    Member

    Along with several others on here, I also use the prom regularly and I repeat, I have NEVER seen any irresponsible cycling. I have occasionally seen someone cycling and thought; Mmm, I wouldn't be doing that speed with so many dogs/kids/drunks about, but maybe thay have better brakes/bike handling skills than me. Ditto those that weave in and out of peds. I can appreciate that a near silent pass at say 12 mph may cause a bit of a start to someone not expecting it but it's not really irresponsible IMO. The prom is well signposted as a shared use path now (as opposed to previously when outraged peds would point to the illegal "cycling prohibited" signs), so bikes shouldn't be a surprise.
    Councillor Maureen Childs has included a bit about complaints she has received about cycling on the prom in her newsletter, and I am just about to email her a response. If you enjoy using the prom for a wee pootle can I ask you to do the same?

    Posted 10 years ago #

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