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CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".

IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters


It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.

RULES No personal insults. No swearing.

CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

31. Nelly
    Member

    @chdot "What is concerning is the implicit 'demonising' of people on bikes (by a council that 'wants' more of them)"

    Says it wants more of us is more accurate.

    It takes an eternity to get sensible adjustments made to cycling infra, yet only a month or two to install a ruddy gate?

    The explanation given to you seems like a fob off as the simple solution would have been a short set of bollards or some other structure right next to the road - from memory, you need to go a wee bit dogleg left to get to the crossing ?

    I think this is to stop joyriders or similar zooming up the path, and we are just collateral damage.

    As a wee quiz, can anyone think of any path installed in the last few years which makes it easy for bikes to segue from road to path without doing an obstacle course or putting your life in danger?

    Might be some, but I am struggling.

    Posted 10 years ago #

32. wingpig
    Member

    Seafield Street link to Restalrig Railway path (ignoring the pedestrian crossing shared-space-corner arrangement, which counts as an obstacle course). Perhaps because the road it links to is only a bus turning circle at the moment. Maybe it'll get bollarded and chicaned when it becomes the access road to a new housing development...

    Posted 10 years ago #

33. Stickman
    Member

    The gates were open this afternoon.

    Posted 10 years ago #

34. chdot
    Admin

    Pure coincidence...

    Posted 10 years ago #

35. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Stickman, that was probably only because someone (not me) took umbrage and did what they felt was necessary. No doubt the slide bolts will have padlocks in due course to prevent this sort of thing.

    If anyone fancies doing likewise, be careful because the cut ends of the slide bolts are extremely sharp.

    Posted 10 years ago #

36. Stickman
    Member

    Arellcat, if you ever happen to meet our mystery gate-opener please thank them on my behalf.

    Posted 10 years ago #

37. gibbo
    Member

    I think there's a decent argument for chicane at that point. But this one, with such a narrow gap, is not fit for purpose.

    Posted 10 years ago #

38. chdot
    Admin

    "I think there's a decent argument for chicane at that point."

    

    (Photo Stickman)

    Well it's clear the path could have been wider! May even be wide enough for a segregated path

    One reason is apparently 'to stop kids going on the road', so might be better to have a chicane (if required at all) nearer the road.

    Is speed a problem? Why not try big "SLOW" painted on the path - like Roseburn Park and near the Rodney Street tunnel?

    Might be better to keep the bollards and paint two narrow cycle lanes at the sides of the path.

    Chicanes make paths narrower and increase chance of 'conflict'.

    Posted 10 years ago #

39. Stickman
    Member

    @chdot: BenN's pic, not mine.

    Posted 10 years ago #

40. BenN
    Member

    That's OK Stickman, you can have it. It was a little overexposed anyway.

    <sobs quietly in the corner>

    Posted 10 years ago #

41. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    My favourite bit of this path, as a new user...is either the pedestrian crossing button where you have to block the pavement to use it, or the lamp post in the middle of the cycle lane. Tough call, but the chicane was as naught...

    Posted 10 years ago #

42. gibbo
    Member

    Is speed a problem?

    That would be the reason I'm thinking.

    Why not try big "SLOW" painted on the path

    Because paint isn't likely to slow people down.

    Chicanes make paths narrower and increase chance of 'conflict'.

    They can do. They can also force cyclists to slow down at points where there's a risk of cyclists going dangerously fast.

    This looks like a point where cyclists maybe should be cutting their speed.

    Unfortunately, the council has made the area way too narrow. If it had been done correctly, it might have been a good idea.

    Posted 10 years ago #

43. chdot
    Admin

    "They can also force cyclists to slow down at points where there's a risk of cyclists going dangerously fast."

    Yes but this is the point. What IS the risk at this particular point and similar places (eg Inverleith Park - where a short path was un-made?)

    Also why is CEC heeding the people who complain about their 'fears' but doesn't react so quickly to other concerns.

    I look forward to widespread introduction of chicanes in case there might be motorists going too fast. Like this -

    

    Posted 10 years ago #

44. SRD
    Moderator

    chicanes turn pedestrians into mobile traffic bumps, just as pinch points use cyclists. it's not good planning.

    Posted 10 years ago #

45. chdot
    Admin

    @SRD

    Useful analogy.

    I just hope cyclists are more considerate than drivers are at some pinch points.

    Posted 10 years ago #

46. threefromleith
    Member

    In all the time I've been using that route (since it opened), I've not seen a single cyclist coming down there at excessive speed.

    You're going slowly because there are always slow-moving people across the path going to and from the tram-stop, and because the gap between the bollards feels very small when you're on the bike - so you go through cautiously & slowly.

    I'd better not give the council ideas, but the need for slowing people down is greater towards the Broomhouse end. Even coasting downhill from the Broomhouse tram bridge towards Balgreen means you can hit 20 - 25mph without realising it (and 30+ if you're pedalling!)

    Posted 10 years ago #

47. neddie
    Member

    @three

    Ah, but at the Broomhouse end there isn't road. A road with precious and important motorists that need protecting in case evil children or cyclists 'jump out' in front of them while they are getting on with their busy lives, texting & speedingmaking progress...

    Posted 10 years ago #

48. chdot
    Admin

    So

    If it's ''cyclist speed' bollards are probably better - they separate users rather than force them into a squeeze.

    If it's about 'kids running into the street' then the chicanes are probably in the wrong place.

    However that's more a job for the parents than the council. Perhaps they (the paranoid parents) could employ a permanent lollipop person.

    Posted 10 years ago #

49. Dave
    Member

    These things always depress me with their insight into institutional bias at the council.

    It can take years to have a drop kerb put in for a section of established national cycleway, there are still parking bays over the top of cycle lanes in many places (extremely dangerous on a busy road), yet nothing is done. They even propose spending the cycle budget allowing HGVs to park on the cycle lane at a busy junction pinch point...

    Yet build a bit of new infrastructure to get people away from the road and the merest hearsay is enough excuse to vandalise it with obstacles in the space of days.

    As a rule, while being careful not to do anything dangerous (after all, I am filming myself) I try to not to accommodate peds at this sort of thing. If they campaign to create difficulty for me, I'm not going to reward that if I can help it.

    Second class citizen is something we all have to suffer, but life is too short for me to accept demotion to third class willingly.

    Posted 10 years ago #

50. SRD
    Moderator

    Dave I agree wholeheartedly with the first half of your post, but how on earth can you condone the same sort of group responsibility for pedestrians that you reject for cyclists?

    If am not to blame for some pavement pedalling lunatic, or serial RLJer, then how on earth can some innocent commuter be responsible for ill-informed idiocy coming from the 'neighbourhood partnership'?

    Posted 10 years ago #

51. Morningsider
    Member

    How about we find out the officer(s) in the Council who are responsible for signing off on these designs and offer to take them out on a tour of their facilities (by bike) so they can see what is wrong with them. We could also offer better solutions to any concerns they might have. It might be too late for these facilities - but we might prevent a few mistakes being made in future e.g. chicanes, tactile paving, inappropriate shared use, missing toucans, signage etc.

    Never hurts to ask relevant councillors along as well.

    I'm sure someone on here must know who the relevant people are. If enough people think this is a goer than I'm happy to help organise it.

    I know that SPOKES regularly meets the council and that there is a cycle forum - but that doesn't seem to stop any of this from happening. I think a bit of direct action by us might help these matters along a bit.

    Posted 10 years ago #

52. Dave
    Member

    Dave I agree wholeheartedly with the first half of your post, but how on earth can you condone the same sort of group responsibility for pedestrians that you reject for cyclists?

    If am not to blame for some pavement pedalling lunatic, or serial RLJer, then how on earth can some innocent commuter be responsible for ill-informed idiocy coming from the 'neighbourhood partnership'?

    That's a solid criticism. They aren't personally to blame, but I'm only human. There is perhaps a modest difference in scale (a ped you meet at Barnton golf course has a fair chance of actually being the community council) but I can agree that this is not a watertight case.

    I suppose my hope would be that sufficient conflict at fake pinch points will erode support for them to the point that pedestrian groups support a consensus position that European cycle provision turns out to be best after all. I'm not convinced this is a likely outcome - I do the same thing with dog walkers and it certainly hasn't resulted in a rush to obey the Highway Code on their behalf.

    Posted 10 years ago #

53. Snowy
    Member

    I previously descended this slope with care and attention at little more than walking pace if there was anyone around at all.

    But now that metal barriers have been deemed to be an acceptable replacement for individual responsibility, I understand that I no longer need to take any care whatsoever, since the infrastructure will look after the pedestrians and myself.

    I shall henceforth barrel through the pinch point as fast as physically possible.

    Posted 10 years ago #

54. stiltskin
    Member

    ^ human nature innit. I have to confess that I now always try to take the chicane on the Barnton path as fast as I can....

    Posted 10 years ago #

55. SRD
    Moderator

    that's exactly how cars treat pinch points too...

    Posted 10 years ago #

56. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    @stilskin

    Ditto at bridge eight on the canal. I can now do it flat out going into town.

    Posted 10 years ago #

57. PS
    Member

    How about we find out the officer(s) in the Council who are responsible for signing off on these designs and offer to take them out on a tour of their facilities (by bike) so they can see what is wrong with them.

    I like this idea. I'm firmly of the opinion that these facilities are so mince because the people who put them in have no experience of using them and no interest/stake in them being any good.

    The quickest way to sort this stuff would be for the council to give their workmen cargo bikes rather than vans...

    Posted 10 years ago #

58. Dave
    Member

    that's exactly how cars treat pinch points too...

    It's not how "cars" treat pinch points - it's how human beings treat them. Almost everyone here is a driver as well as a cyclist, to draw a distinction between what drivers do and what cyclists do is mostly artificial.

    The main practical difference is that some behaviour is expected/tolerated/condoned when I drive my car but not when I ride my bike.

    The police won't even bother enforcing 20mph limits (I've been overtaken many times in my car by people doing well over 30mph in a 20 zone), but I can't cycle to work without constantly having to negotiate chicanes because that mode sends me shooting down society's pecking order.

    I think the root of my trouble is difficulty switching from just about the top of the top of the pile to third class based on criteria I don't recognize...

    Posted 10 years ago #

59. Chug
    Member

    What most annoys me is the differing ways that new infrastructure is viewed and reported (not necessarily just this ramp).
    Is it any surprise that new cycling infrastructure leads to "increased speeds"? I thought that this, along with the safety of being away from cars, was what it was for.
    If this was a new road, (c.f. the dualling of the A9), the generally reported view would be that it has led to "Shorter Journey Times" - the deity that all traffic planners and politicians worship - and that this is "a good thing".

    Posted 10 years ago #

60. HankChief
    Member

    @chug - that's a good way of looking at it.

    They have built us the equivalent of a new dual carriageway but expect us to share it with much slower and meandering traffic, who don't like being passed by faster vehicles.

    Interesting on the centreline removal thread the research quotes a 4mph increase in traffic speeds just because a 30mph road is resurfaced. Feels like every style of travel likes to go faster on new Tarmac. - it's just on shared paths that this brings chicanes.

    Posted 10 years ago #

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