CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure

First Group 'to lose Scotrail franchise' to Dutch firm

(129 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by Baldcyclist
  • Latest reply from chdot

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  1. fimm
    Member

    "improved off-peak cycle capacity on trains"

    ... such that, for example, Mr & Mrs SRD and the two small SRDs could book 4 bikes onto one train? Or indeed roll up at a railway station and be reasonably condifent* that they are not going to be left in the rain for half an hour because there are already 2 bikes on an otherwise empty train?

    * assuming the entire membership of ERC and their bikes haven't got there first...

    The point I'm trying to make is what do we actually want and what is more or less achievable? For example, do Abeillio realise that there's a big demand to move bikes to and from John O'Groats? (I once read a blog of someone who had his bike shipped by air freight from Cornwall...)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. crowriver
    Member

    Well, I must say that if they deliver what is promised in the plan in their press release, it will be a very positive step forward for the railways in Scotland. What is more, they have the track record of delivering not only in the Netherlands but south of the border too.

    How refreshing to see some good, constructive ideas for public transport and cycling! These will actually happen too.

    I think I need a wee lie down, I can't take all this excitement in one go. ;-)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    For the sceptics, link here to 'Cycling the Abellio Way' which details their approach. Presumably similar coming to Scotland soon!

    Further details from the company on their plans for ScotRail here:
    http://www.abellio.com/scotrail

    Have to give credit where it's due, Scottish government and Transport Scotland got a good deal here.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. cb
    Member

    " - A new carnet to allow customers to choose where they want to travel , how many tickets they want to buy and how long they need them to be valid"

    Need to wait and see the detail but sounds promising.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    Here's the Cyclepoint in Leeds, delivered by Abellio.

    http://www.cyclepoint.org

    According to their announcement, similar Cyclepoints will be installed at "key city hubs": maybe Haymarket or Waverley in Edinburgh?

    Bike & Go:
    http://www.bikeandgo.co.uk

    Here's Norther Rail's 'Bike & Go' rental scheme:
    http://www.northernrail.org/travel/cycling/bike-and-go

    And Greater Anglia's 'Bike & Go':
    http://www.abelliogreateranglia.co.uk/travel-information/your-journey/bike-go

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Ed1
    Member

    "I think people are getting a little carried away."

    I tend to think like-wise as what the Dutch rail company may do in the Netherlands is what is expected what is contracted but also what is culturally expected.

    In the Netherlands the restriction on bikes because there would be too many, of course we don’t want that here, and we don’t want charges either. But that is not likely to happen. In the same way as United States can offer bike racks on buses because hardly anyone takes bikes on buses in the Netherlands or even London this could be impractical.

    As much as we could not expect the Dutch company to charge for bikes as this would not be the UK approach, would we expect them to provide the same services as in the Netherlands? We of course would not assume the negatives of the Netherlands charging, why would we assume the positives?

    The charging is because of the bike culture, the benefits are also because of the bike culture.

    Although some minor tinkering in the right direction it would not pay ROI or may not pay political dividends to introduce more Dutch style storage or rental system.

    The company spends the money in the Netherlands because its makes sense, it may make less sense here.

    I am not quite sure that the typical rail commuter has 2 bikes they use to complete journey although some may think they would not be the norm not quite sure where these figures from come from.

    The Uk train operators can allow bikes on trains free because there is not many it is expected. They will not charge of would be bad press outrage etc.

    Their objective is to make to money, because the rail company is largely a natural monopoly they could squeeze the contract, not expecting a renewal, or they could deliver a good service to get a renewal.

    The sensible option the (game theory -) may be to squeeze it for profit with providing token differentiation as no matter how good the service they deliver they could lose for political reasons nationalization etc (not likely) , corruption of process by officials (we are meant to pretend this does not happen in the uk but a business would be foolish to ignore this risk entirely) or incompetent of officials.

    Although this could be a good opportunity to push for some new services unless these are in the contract, or political pressure it may be harder than getting councils etc to spend the money as the council would spend it on something else anyway with government its taking money from weaker political interests etc.

    When cycling was more popular than it is today the 50s or 60s, but middle class were getting out of cycling so cycling had no political clout as more middle class cycle its moved up the agenda.

    In the 1980s I was give a bike for Christmas when 7 I walk down to the park with it got "told off" by the park warden for cycling in the park, then tried to cycle on the pavement and got "told off" by adults so barely used it did not learn to cycle properly until 3 months ago. Now as an adult I never get told of by wardens etc there is cycle marking now. This is a cultural shift I would guess in part by middle class getting in to cycling in recent years.

    Although this can be seen rightfully as an opportunity would imagine more likely to tinkering around the margins so I am kind of with morningsider. The rail company will follow culture and expectations so could be some improvements but would not expect all the benefits of there operations in the Netherlands any more that would expect the all the negatives (charges and restrictions).

    What part of profit do the companies make from cyclists what opportunity is to increase this, is the opportunity cost more than increasing profit from other uses.

    Tend to this would be cultural and politically driven change rather than profit. Is a bit chicken and egg if was lots of cyclist then services would become more profitable if there is services more will cycle.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. Vez
    Member

    Here's the station cycle hire thing they run in the NW and NE of England -
    http://www.bikeandgo.co.uk/
    The station in the town my folks live in has one. I got all excited when it opened but then of course have never used it cos I can always borrow a bike from them.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. PS
    Member

    Although some minor tinkering in the right direction it would not pay ROI or may not pay political dividends to introduce more Dutch style storage or rental system.

    Abellio will have bid the initiatives discussed in the press releases in order to score quality points in the franchise competition evaluation. These intiatives are then turned into contractual commitments in the franchise agreement and if they fail to do them they will be hit with a financial penalty, so that's one reason why they'll be incentivised to do what they say - doesn't matter what the ROI is.

    Another thing to consider is that the bike angle is one way that Abellio can differentiate themselves from the competition. So, as long as authorities are (at worst) paying lip service to / (at best) actively promoting cycling it makes sense for them not to soft-pedal on this. Future franchise competitions will ask for evidence of where they have done this sort of stuff before - if they can point to consistent success and achievement, that will help them win more franchises.

    If the work they do as part of their commitment does lead to more cycling to stations, then the ROI may become more credible too. They may have an eye on the longer term picture that says: More poeple on bikes = fewer people in cars = more people using public transport (including trains). So keep cycling and keep telling them about it. :-)

    Finally, a fair bit may actually depend on the individuals involved at Abellio. To turn off the cynicism for a second, if they like how things work for cyclists in the Netherlands they may well try to promote that in the UK because it's a good thing to do, even if it doesn't necessarily turn a profit.

    And, at any point Scottish Government can change the franchise specification (within reason) to tell the franchisee to do more stuff for cyclists. There is a mechanism in the franchise agreement that provides the franchisee with additional money to cover the costs of any such change to the spec.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. Ed1
    Member

    So they become contractual commitments, well I suppose in that case it does not matter what the individual ROI on each part is, its part of the overall package, as long as contactally commitment even if not profitable if they consider can make profit overall by offering this hats of to them.

    I am always a bit weary of things that are not contractual or lack specification.

    It’s a shame there is still the commercially confidentially in public contracts (Always tend to think can hide bad practice, incompetence officials, poor evaluation or general doggedness etc, the companies may like, the officials may like, not great for public scrutiny the lack of transparency that can be encounter).

    From what Abellio is saying this does sound very good.

    I do generally regard a healthy cynicism as a good thing in the same way should scrutinize everything, in fact, tend to think best to regard as the default position.

    May have came across as somewhat stilted do like to consider things from all angles devils advocate sometimes.

    Is this likely to offer a better service for cyclist? would guess possibly so significantly better don’t know but do look forward to the hire bikes.

    When a student in 2000 for a university project we went to look at the Netherlands transport system and the better intergration. They did seem to do things better so what harm can some of this exbertise do.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

  11. crowriver
    Member

    "Aberdeen rail station set for £2.5m of Abellio improvements"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-29554463

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. chdot
    Admin

    "

    ALEX Salmond was accused of using his final days in power to sell out Scotland after Dutch rail operator Abellio was awarded the contract to run ScotRail services from April 2015.

    Labour leader Johann Lamont claimed the Scottish government had chosen a deal that was “more expensive” and would lead to “decades-old” trains being used.

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/fmqs-lamont-attacks-salmond-over-abellio-contract-1-3567995

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. kaputnik
    Moderator

    http://www.thejournal.co.uk/business/business-news/hitachi-named-preferred-bidder-70-7911671

    Hitachi named as preferred bidder for 70 Scotrail electric trains

    I assume these are to be the EGIP trains to replace the current Turbostars. They aren't actually any faster than the current sets though, but assume will be quicker accelerating to get the shorter journey times?

    As to be expected, the styling - outside and inside - is insipid and uninspired.

    Other points to note would be looks like they have bigger windows, and there's the option for an end-gangway, meaning that you aren't stuck in the 3 cars you boarded like you are if you get on a 6-car (2x3) Turbostar. Important if you get on the busy half, or the half filled with drunken football fans, or the half with the malfunctioning toilets.

    http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at-200-regional_46.html

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. Morningsider
    Member

    More information on the new trains in the Railway Gazette:

    http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/traction-rolling-stock/single-view/view/hitachi-to-build-scotrail-emus.html

    Have to admit, I thought Siemens would win this contract.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Interesting artist's impression on Morningsider's link. The designer appears to have been inspired by tacking a 1980s West German telephone box on the front.

    I note that 2/3 of the order is for 3-car trains, 1/3 for 4-car. I had assumed that all the EGIP platform-lengthening works and promised capacity increases would have meant more 4-car trains, to make 7 or 8-car combinations.

    For those who don't speak "railway", EMU is an Electric Multiple Unit. Not some sort of large, flightless bird.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

  17. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    I've been taking the bike on the train from Haymarket to Leuchars and back at peak time every day for the last six weeks without any problems, and I'm pretty impressed with ScotRail. The conductors are usually friendly, and often let a third bike sneak on to the two bikes only rack.

    Of course commuting by taking your bike on the train can't ever be a mass participation thing, and given that the peak time trains are so full I'm not sure taking out seats to put bike racks in would be sensible. What we need, and we certainly don't have in Edinburgh at the moment, is lots of secure, sheltered and convenient bike parking immediately outside the stations. Haymarket in particular is a disaster, let's hope Arbelio improve things! If there was somewhere to park at Haymarket I would go for the keeping a bike at each end option and get to show off my beautiful Dutch bike every day!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

  19. fimm
    Member

    UtrechtCyclist, there is bike parking at Haymarket - just by the entrance to the old station building. It always has lots of bicycles in it. What is inadequate about it in your view?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. chrisfl
    Member

    From what I've seen at Haymarket their is a chronic under capacity of bike parking spaces.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. gembo
    Member

    @chrisfl - depends what time you get there. Before 8 you will get a space. After that gets tricky.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. chdot
    Admin

    "depends what time you get there. Before 8 you will get a space. After that gets tricky"

    Er, that's the point - not enough spaces for people wanting to cycle to the station to pay money to train operators and (in turn) Network Rail and (theoretically) reduce ScotGov subsidy, and wear and tear on Edinburgh's roads and reduce personal stress - well if there were enough racks/storage.

    So all the usual governmental and corporate bodies need to talk and find a solution.

    It'll never happen.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. gembo
    Member

    Or you can get up earlier. I do not wish to sound curmudgeonly, I feel the early commuter should be able to alight at the station and park her bike at the door and then catch her train. The later riser perhaps sometimes like myself seeking a cheap day return after 9.15a.m should factor in the faffing around trying to find a space somewhere in the vicinity or as they do, across the Sheffield stands etc. The racks are better than the previous scenario outside ryrie's pub with four stands and then the fence next to the road. There aren't enough racks for everyone to rock up at any time and expect a nice spot (I like a Sheffield stand without other bikes around it but this is only achievable at my work on a Friday).

    To make up for being a curmudgeon I now offer Gembo's secret Sheffield stands that no one will ever use (does involve time but they are covered and secure -ish). Cycle into the east market street / new street underground car park. Cycle through it to the station end. Both levels have empty Sheffield stands (three I think). They are covered by the roof/floor of the next level up. You can then get out into the outside bit of the carpark and walk through it to the station. Practise run advisable. If not raining can also use the railing outside waverley court which has a sign banning employees from using the railing or the racks as these are for visitors.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. crowriver
    Member

    Aye, but gembo the problem is the racks at Waverley are still full even at 10pm (I know because I often walk past them around this time). Something else going on there other than commuting methinks...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "Something else going on there other than commuting methinks..."

    Well some bikes do get abandoned, but surely a sign of train/bike/train commuters who don't live in Edinburgh.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. PS
    Member

    Some of the bikes in Waverley seem to be abandonned (I've seen a few of them marked with a bit of paper that says something along the lines of "this bike appears to be abandonned, if it doesn't move in the next x days it will be forceably removed"), but others presumably are people using the Abellio-endorsed Dutch approach of having a bike at your destination.

    I haven't seen a list of where Abellio are planning to put the 3,500 additional cycle parking spaces, but I'd expect it will be targeted at sites where the need is greatest so I wouldn't be surprised if we see new racks at both Waverley and Haymarket.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. Ed1
    Member

    It could be bigger also would not be ideal place to leave a bike overnight. Haymarket wastes a lot of space inside with its minimalist design. Inside there is big areas where could be seats all the way around the edge.

    Its looks great but style over function in Haymarket.

    As the space is not used anyway could be internal bike racks in the Haymarket these may prove safer.

    The biggest problem I find with Haymarket is the bike rack is often full more bike parking and may be some inside would be nice. There could be charging premium parking inside. In the Netherlands they charge for premium bike parking. People pay for lockers etc may be if people paid for premium parking in the station then more good parking would appear although may be a bit soon for that, as in the netherlands only because bikes so popular this is viable prehaps.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I met colleagues for dinner last week and had to explain to them that I detoured via Waverley as it was the only indoor, publicly accessible, CTV-covered bike parking in the centre of town where I felt my bike would be safe for a number of hours.

    Correct me if I'm wrong?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. chdot
    Admin

    "the only indoor, publicly accessible, CTV-covered bike parking in the centre of town where I felt my bike would be safe for a number of hours"

    So it's PLU clogging up the racks paid for by train passengers/taxpayers/PLU.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. gembo
    Member

    @kaputnik, I would need to check the CCTV at my secret spaces (up thread) before daring to issue a correction. Also no better than waverley for night out but marginally closer if approaching from abbey hill.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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