CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
Well, it doesn't really cost anything. And it gives a sense of identity. Plus it's nice to see the etymology of the how the modern English names formed. The tourists love it, and I'm sure that the benefit to tourism is greater than the cost, so why not?
Fair enough in the Islands.
Shortbread fantasies aside its not part of the cultural identity of the lowlands and its not free, I bet the money spent on the this re-signage would have paid for the roseburn cycle track.
Obviously the primary moved, from Tollcross to Bonnington - a school which had to be rescued by CEC from their own abandonment (more a bonus of Gaelic than blame).
Perfectly logical for the secondary to move somewhere with room for growth, but more complex than any parental desires to be based at JGHS.
Shortbread fantasies aside its not part of the cultural identity of the lowlands and its not free
As far as I understand, railway station signs have only had Gaelic added when they're being changed anyway. Costs of adding the Gaelic are therefore minimal.
There is also a certain irony in suggesting cutting spending on Gaelic infrastructure because it's only of use to a clear minority...so that we could instead spend it on a cycle track.
"2) likely lead to diminution in numbers (we can all agree it's terrible but it's the truth)"
IF 'entity' (pupils + teachers) could be moved to somewhere with more room, could make Gaelic more attractive.
In contrast there have been years of arguing about shutting Castlebrae with conflicting views of where pupils would be better off.
Never simple or alway rational!
For better or worse, moving from JGHS to Tynecastle would ...
I'm afraid if the parents commitment to a language ends at the approach road I've got very little sympathy for them or their project.
There is also a certain irony in suggesting cutting spending on Gaelic infrastructure because it's only of use to a clear minority...so that we could instead spend it on a cycle track.
But at least a cycle track would be useful, teaching bilingual children is a fantastic idea I just question the use of teaching an obsolete one.
"I bet the money spent on the this re-signage would have paid for the roseburn cycle track"
If only spending priorities were rational.
"I just question the use of teaching an obsolete one"
Yeah what is this obsession with Latin?
I think the Scotrail: Scotland's Railway rebrand was specified as cost-neutral ie. just a change in spec for already-planned refreshes and refurbs.
I'm afraid if the parents commitment to a language ends at the approach road I've got very little sympathy for them or their project.
Right, that's exactly what I meant by an ideological purity test. It's a minority language in the best of places, and certainly in Edinburgh where for a bunch of reasons there just isn't a huge number of Gaels around. So we have a certain (small) number of people who speak Gaelic in the family (say they've moved here from the islands), and a certain (also small) hard core enthusiasts who prioritize Gaelic over JGHS no matter what. That is, obviously, a small number, but they are the ones who – I think – should have the option no matter what.
Currently, the fact that GME pupils feed into JGHS also attracts people who would otherwise not bother with the whole rigmarole (the ones you don't have sympathy for). This improves numbers, making the GME offering more sustainable and eventually attractive (given the average social profile of such 'casuals'). It doesn't cost huge amounts of extra money (the kids have to be educated somewhere anyway) but it puts bums on seats in Bonnington Rd.
So now if we disrupt this extra attractiveness factor we effectively punish the committed ones for whom things (at least potentially) become worse. The ones who leave will probably be fine anyway (presumably they're the kids of the sharp-elbowed middle class), but the ones who stay will get a smaller peer group, narrower choice of subjects, etc. All because the catchment planning didn't quite work out. How is that fair?
I just question the use of teaching an obsolete one
I'm glad you asked. (And seriously, there are people around, even in Edinburgh, for whom it's just their language. Not a shortbread thing, not an SNP thing, just their language. And they don't have another country to go to for their kids to learn it, like I do if I really wanted to. What are they supposed to do?)
Yeah what is this obsession with Latin?
To be fair it's not like you can take it in the state system any more round here (Though IIRC Royal High does Classical Studies at least)
"I'm afraid if the parents commitment to a language ends at the approach road I've got very little sympathy for them or their project"
@steveo I agree with you there, but your earlier posts suggest a more general antipathy
Age 10/11 I applied to 'immersion tardive' (french) mainly to get away from my classmates. My parents were not sure it was a good thing at all, but our class certainly fit the 'aspirational' model - very high achieving group that did not fit in well with 'standard' teaching, but flourished (as most would) with specialised attention. (similar ethos to steiner school cohorts in many ways - anth would have hated us).
Certainly both this stream - extremely selective at the time - and the now much wider French Immersion programme in my home province have tended to be seen as 'parents selecting out'. which is crazy because French is a really important aspect of Canadian life, and essential if you want to work for the federal government. but knowing that similar claims were and are made about French Immersion (taking resources away from kids in more disadvantaged neighbourhoods), makes me quite skeptical when such claims are also made about Gaelic.
"To be fair it's not like you can take it in the state system any more round here"
Wasn't referring to real world state/Edinburgh education reality.
Merely an oblique reference to certain 'traditionalist' views and the political consequences.
Actually I understand the point of learning (some) Latin. Sadly, somehow, it's become a shorthand for prejudice about state/private/grammar stances.
How is that fair?
Sorry, I'm trying to see how it is unfair, its a minority language by a margin so small that its off the scale over taken by languages of people who moved here in the last 50 years. The fact its being accommodated is purely down to EU directives. Its been hundreds of years since it was spoken at all in the lowlands no different from French in that respect.
There are plenty of people who live in this country who speak another language at home and get by just fine preserving their little bit of home whilst learning a standard curriculum at school. We're not suggesting that parents of Indian decent package their kids off to the homeland are we.
Anyway, the real debate we ought to be having is the abysmal quality of French and German teaching that is being rolled out in our primaries.
Wonderful classroom teachers who may have studied French or German at some poiint in their lives are being expected to teach these languages to primary classes, and the results are - as you can imagine - pretty horrific for both the teachers and students.
@steveo I agree with you there, but your earlier posts suggest a more general antipathy
The Gealicisation of the lowlands grates somewhat I'll admit. Its never not been widely spoken this part of the country since the end of the dark age but we have this nonsense of it being cultural identity and somehow relevant.
Sorry, I'm trying to see how it is unfair, its a minority language by a margin so small that its off the scale over taken by languages of people who moved here in the last 50 years.
Er, it's about 1 per cent, yes overtaken by Polish, about par with Urdu and Punjabi, and more than twice as many users as British Sign Language. Small but not off the scale.
The fact its being accommodated is purely down to EU directives
It's really, really not. (FWIW, the roots of today's Gaelic policy go back to the 1980s under the Tories.)
There are plenty of people who live in this country who speak another language at home and get by just fine preserving their little bit of home whilst learning a standard curriculum at school
Thing is, if a Punjabi Scot stops speaking Punjabi (I can tell you from experience it's very hard to keep up the language when it's just the family speaking it daily), Punjabi won't disappear, but Gaelic will. (I realize a potential answer is 'good riddance', but not all agree.)
nonsense of it being cultural identity and somehow relevant.
For many people, it's just as relevant as English to you or Russian to me.
If the government are trying to Gaelicize the Lowlands, they're doing a very poor job of it anyway.
Er, it's about 1 per cent, yes overtaken by Polish, about par with Urdu and Punjabi, and more than twice as many users as British Sign Language. Small but not off the scale.
And how many Polish schools do you think would be tolerated never mind state sponsored?
Thing is, if a Punjabi Scot stops speaking Punjabi (I can tell you from experience it's very hard to keep up the language when it's just the family speaking it daily), Punjabi won't disappear, but Gaelic will. (I realize a potential answer is 'good riddance', but not all agree.)
So if there were no Gaelic speakers in Edinburgh it would die? Really? Because as I've mentioned its hardly the last great stronghold of the language. I'll admit I'm not really fussy for its preservation though I have no burning desire to see it die, I do however question the need for its preservation over the needs of the majority in the Lowlands.
It's really, really not. (FWIW, the roots of today's Gaelic policy go back to the 1980s under the Tories.)
So its nothing at all to do with ECRML?
For many people, it's just as relevant as English to you or Russian to me.
If the government are trying to Gaelicize the Lowlands, they're doing a very poor job of it anyway.
But the railway station signs aren't in Russian! Poor job perhaps but what other reason could there be for publishing official documents in a language spoken mono-lingually by not one single person and spoken by a few hundred in Edinburgh, Glasgow or any where in between.
Gaelic language thread, anyone...?
And how many Polish schools do you think would be tolerated never mind state sponsored?
But that's exactly the point. Polish has a state behind it. Gaelic doesn't, other than Holyrood.
So if there were no Gaelic speakers in Edinburgh it would die? Really?
No, but if you deny the opportunity to those speakers that do live here (or might move here), you're putting people in a position where they end up having to compromise between the language and other opportunities they might have. In these situations minority languages do tend to lose.
I do however question the need for its preservation over the needs of the majority in the Lowlands.
The whole 'us v. them' approach is a red herring…
So its nothing at all to do with ECRML?
Pretty much nothing at all, yes. The ECRML isn't an EU document, the UK didn't ratify it until 2001 and Gaelic policy is driven by the Gaelic Language Act which wasn't prompted by the ECRML ratification. Scots is also recognized under the ECRML but there's a bery different level of support there…
Poor job perhaps but what other reason could there be for publishing official documents in a language spoken mono-lingually by not one single person and spoken by a few hundred in Edinburgh, Glasgow or any where in between.
I suggest you visit Wales to see what a real effort to push the language into public life would look like… we'd be talking about whether all those compulsory Gaelic lessons in all schools are so great.
Fair enough, I will shut up now :)
Or an education thread -
"
The long-standing Curriculum for Excellence policy was drawn up in an attempt to deliver a more practical approach to education, but teachers have grown frustrated with the workload and the bureaucracy associated with it.
"
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/tories-threaten-to-pull-out-of-key-education-policy-1-4312398
Nice sunset out there.
The whole 'us v. them' approach is a red herring…
In this case its really not, there is a finite pot of money being spent to get kids with no interest in a language into a "better" school at the same time being used to teach a language that isn't spoken in the city outside of a vanishingly small number of households.
Gaelic has a privileged position in Scotland compared to all other second languages, most of which have a higher number of speakers, is it too much to ask that the speakers move to a school with the room to accommodate them?
In these situations minority languages do tend to lose.
People chose their priorities, expensive house near a good school, big house and garden but a 90 minute drive. Its all about choice, you could choose to educate your kids in Gaelic outside of the school day.
I suggest you visit Wales
But Welsh was the primary language of most of the country and at least a second language for the majority of recent history and I'd still make the argument that dual language road signs are hubris.
Pretty much nothing at all, yes
Fair enough.
All about priorities I suppose. The Scottish Government is spending about £28m on Gaelic support (education, BBC Alba etc) in 2016/17. The 2011 census shows 57,375 Gaelic speakers in Scotland. So this equates to about £500 per Gaelic speaker in Scottish Government support this year.
Personally, I would rather this was invested in supporting those families in greatest need of state support, whether through education, social security or some other need.
Nice sunset out there.
Can't see it from under my bridge :D
I'll leave piosad to have the last word should he chose too.
Gaelic language thread, anyone...?
I didn't mean to stop your nice argumentdiscussion. Merely suggesting to start a new thread...
Oooh. A Gaelic stooshie. Under cover of a building site report!
There are a number of people on this forum who I know can discuss and think about issues in more than one language. In my experience you don't come to the quite the same conclusion because the words and structure shift your reasoning. From this, I deduce that second languages are much more valuable than people think as they open up whole new planes of thought.
I'd like to think we can find room to cherish all of our languages, the number of which always surprises me when I try to make a list. It runs from Gaelic to French via English, Doric, Makaton, BSL, Braid Shetland.....
And anyone who thinks that the nurturing of Gaelic is a subliminal plot by dastardly separatists should bear in mind the original legislation - The Gaelic Language Act 2005. That's 2005 - when the Scottish Executive was run by people wholly committed to the good functioning of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
I used to be amused by Gaelic signs, now I just see them as normal, and I'm certainly not threatened by people speaking languages other than RP English. Maybe it's a European state of mind? In any case, I'm proud of the smattering of Gaelic I have, the acquisition of which was prompted by bafflement as to why every fifth hill on OS maps is called Carn Odhar. Turns out it just means 'khaki coloured round hill'. I should really learn more.
@IWRATS: my school maths teacher was a great man from Coll who used to berate me for not knowing Gaelic, as he knew I have family from neighbouring Tiree. "Och, you've no culture in you at all" he frequently teased me and my brothers.
My mum can understand Gaelic but doesn't ever speak it nowadays. Her mother was from Tiree, her father from Lewis. They met and lived in Glasgow but never spoke Gaelic to each other, but would speak it to friends and family.
@Stickman
A mate with Sri Lankan heritage used to say he could understand Tamil perfectly, but felt odd speaking it. I found that was weird and sad but then I realised it's the same with me and Doric. I could speak it, bit ah jist dinna, ken?
Also, I've spent a couple of nights drinking heavily with this guy, who is 93. Ripped me to shreds as gently as could be. Never spoke English till he was five.
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