CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
IWRATS all excellent points and wonderfully argued as ever, however not relevant to the teaching of a minority language at an over crowded school in favour of one struggling.
And just because the money started to be wasted in 2005 by a different colour of nationalist doesn't mean it's not still a pointless waste.
@steveo
Kind words, thanks. I guess you see detriment where I see possibilities. Over-valuing the possible in comparison to the concrete is one of my major failings, no doubt there.
Just as well I missed the Gaelic stooshie on the cycling forum!
For vast majority of people cycling is as irrelevant as Gaelic I bet. However I think popularity has got nothing to do with something's value.
I love the origins of names and there are names galore (Gaelic word) around the Lowlands that have Gaelic connections (as well as other influences of course). One of the writers in the National did a Gaelic map of the lowlands - much disliked by many people! That wasn't to say it was a bad thing of course. Only through discussion can people explain why they don't think something is relevant or fair.
My daughter benefitted from the Feis and learnt to play Clarsach. I'd argue that Gaelic music culture is something worthwhile.
The music of Martyn Bennet and the skills of Danny MacAskill were blended together in the film The Ridge. Two niche interests working together.
Of course the school issue is complex and we could discuss why we have Roman Catholic Schools in Scotland too.
The canal bridge is open at the steps at Viewforth! An ASL for bikes has been painted.
Gaelic definitely increases the synapses in your cerebral cortex, as does French or learning to read a musical instrument.
What I could never fathom was why tynecastle high was not acceptable venue for a Gaelic medium high school?
There is now a traffic island on the road outside the new boroughmuir
Obviously learning to read a musical instrument hugely increases number of synapses but learning to read music or learning to play a musical instrument also good for total number of synapses
I just suggest placing yourself for a moment in other people's shoes. 'We told you your catchment school would be X, as it has been for a good twenty (?) years, but we screwed up the planning for X so go to Y now. There's too few of you anyway so why should you get special treatment'.
Does anyone know if the planned canal works will ever include removing the speed bumps where the chicane used to be, seeing as they're now pretty useless, only guiding cyclists towards the benches rather than actually slowing anyone down?
"We told you your catchment school would be X, as it has been for a good twenty (?) years"
Well, yes, but.
At one time that would have applied to Tollcross. I imagine some people did not like the idea of Bonnington, others would have welcomed a new start.
Things change.
Catchment areas will have to too (sometime).
@piosad, always good to place yourself in other folks shoes. Gaelic medium was at JGHS so I think it perfectly reasonable to assume it would stay at JGHS. No problem with that. So if that changed then I can see why people would object. What I struggle with iis if there is consideration of expanding the numbers of Gaelic speakers why a lovely new school with under occupancy would be rejected in favour of another lovely new school that is full up?
On the canal route the new paving without speed bumps near the boroughmuir site was fairly icy at the beginning of the week and I favoured the route with the bumps. Beyond this there is a new kerb that has been installed on the boroughmuir site side, it looks a bit Shan.
I still think there's a difference between 'things have to change because we've thought about it and come up with a reasonable sustainable plan for how we are going to expand/consolidate GME in the city' – indeed at current rates of growth at Taobh na Pàirce this will have to happen and I sure hope the council is thinking about it – and 'oh sh** we've b****red up and we'll be full next year unless we do something now – off you pop', which was very much how it came across in the spring. There was even the suggestion that because Tynecastle teaches Gaelic (as a second language) it has everything you need for GME, which showed precisely how little thought had gone into the proposal. If I was a TnP parent I'd be livid too. But I have indeed derailed this thread quite enough I think.
@piosad, I don't think you are that off topic? Cyclists as users of road space are not dissimilar to Gaelic speakers in the English language world?
Properly segregated paths Are similar to GME?
Fact remains, the footprint of JGHS is never going to allow secondary expansion for Gaelic whereas there is room at Tynecastle. Not sure what that relates to in cycling.
It's not exactly dissimilar to the 'why don't you stick to the marvellous off-road network that you have' argument. Look at all the space on the NEPN, there's never going to be enough space in the city centre for your minority pursuit. But then again I would say that :).
Catching up with this on the train home...
@piosad:
“Tynecastle doesn't have the staff or expertise to run GME (they do teach Gaelic as a second language but that's completely different).”
That’s not really an argument against moving the unit, with presumably the teachers who have the expertise, to Tynecastle.
“ I don't really think one can seriously suggest that the disruption such a move would involve, including potentially loss of staff (not like there's lots of those teachers around), is trivial and would not create difficulties.”
Yeah, these were the arguments used recently to fend off the proposed move .
The fact that GME is at Gillespie’s is just an historical anomaly. GME at primary level used to be at Tollcross (which is in the Gillespie’s catchment), and was moved successfully to the dedicated primary school at Bonnington without anyone complaining (at least not in public) about disruption to pupils.
Perhaps the move would be staggered, rather than ALL GME pupils moving en masse to Tynecastle - one year a Gillespie’s pupil, the next a Tynecastle one. They could just cease recruiting GME at S1 into Gillespie’s, with those students being taught at Tynecastle instead. So I can’t see how pupils would be disrupted in that scenario, though I can see it being potentially disruptive for teachers, who might have to flit from one campus to another during the day or the week. They might be so disgruntled they up sticks and take jobs at the GME high schools elsewhere in Scotland, that’s true. There would need to be vacancies of course, and they might be replaced by teachers from the Highlands, Glasgow, Stirling…..so what? Is that really a valid argument against moving the GME unit to Tynecastle?
“such a move would lead to a drop off in numbers for GME.”
It might not. Broughton HS didn’t have a stellar reputation not so many years ago. A new building, and the arrival of the specialist music and dance schools (and maybe the SFA football academy), with the attendant facilities, motivated pupils, etc. seems to have been beneficial. Though there may also have been a “invest in a nice home instead of private school” effect, especially in places like Comely Bank and Stockbridge. Being next door to a Waitrose can’t hurt either for certain parents… I hear rumours that the school is now almost at capacity.
So maybe moving the GME to Tynecastle would have a similar benefit to the school and its reputation?
“The council has statutory duties both with respect to providing catchment places for all and with respect to promoting GME, and if the council screws up catchment planning it doesn't strike me as a positive that the remedy should be putting GME parents in a position where they have to compromise. Why is it that minority language users have to face some kind of ideological purity test ('oh, so you're not really into Gaelic, you're just playing the system')? </rant>”
I didn’t say all parents were doing that, though some undoubtedly are. My anecdata tells me that there are of course those who believe in Gaelic (e.g.. born in Highlands, parents speak Gaelic, grandparents speak Gaelic, or just think the language is A Good Thing culturally); Also there seem to be quite a few who believe in bilingualism and its positive effects on children’s educational development, regardless of language (many in this camp are apparently born into another language, and are bilingual, e.g.. parents from other European countries, etc.); then there are the cynical opportunist “free pass to Gillespie’s” carpetbaggers.
@SRD:
“@crowriver i'd suggest that a better target for your ire would be south morningside.”
I wasn’t really directing ire at anyone. If anything I am just exasperated at the paralysis shown by councillors (not officials I might add) when faced with making decisions which might upset a few voters.
“BPS teaches all its kids on site, has a steady stream of kids joining it every term, and may have the possibiolity of expansion into the former church adjacent to it once Boroughmuir quits its current site. I suppose the catchment could be drawn in smaller, so that some go to craiglockhart and some to tollcross and some to James gillespies, cutting down the middle of streets in many cases. anything more dramatic would presumably require renaming the school.”
Yeah but the problem is not just the primaries but the secondaries (Boroughmuir and Gillespie’s) are full. So moving addresses (and kids) from one to the other won’t work. addresses need to be taken out of both Boroughmuir AND Gillespie’s catchment. Or the council can spend £7.2 million from the education budget so that parents in the existing , unchanged catchments can continue to send their children to these two oversubscribed schools. Which, as the report quoted, seems like “madness”. And it is!
That is why I looked at the catchment maps (downloadable from CEC web site as PDFs if anyone is interested) and targeted areas on the periphery of the high school catchments which could be reallocated to schools which are not oversubscribed, such as Firhill or Tynecastle. These schools are quite nearby some of the peripheral areas of the more popular catchments, easily within walking distance.
I suppose other examples could be some of the Tollcross PS catchment could be reassigned to Dalry PS; however the area ‘twixt Dundee Street and the canal is much closer to that school, it would be quite a long walk for pupils in the former Tollcross PS catchment. Similarly some addresses in the current Royal Mile PS catchment could move to Abbeyhill PS. Or indeed areas in the far south of the Sciennes and Preston Street PS catchments could be reallocated to the Liberton HS catchment and associated primaries: probably closer on foot.
These issues won’t go away. I really fail to see why millions need to be spent on a permanent annexe to suit the demands of catchments that could be changed at much lesser expense. I fully expect that if it is decided an annexe is not feasible financially, then the catchment review will be decided in the favour of those parents who shout the loudest, organise campaigns, threaten legal action, etc. This seems to be the way things get done in this city.
So, leap forward to 2018 and welcome to Tynecastle HS Tollcross PS puplls; welcome to Drummond HS Royal Mile PS pupils; and welcome to Firhill HS Buckstone PS pupils. As long as the pupils of Morningside, Newington, Brunstfield, The Grange and GME pupils from across the Lothians get “good educations” (without having to rub shoulders with the “wrong sort” too often) then all’s well, eh?
@crowriver – I don't necessarily disagree with any of that, if all this is done within some kind of long-term plan (as I wrote in a different post, I hope such a plan is being worked on). As it was, there was an out of the blue announcement that effectively pitted the interloping GME pupils against the good catchment burghers.
I'd like to be as optimistic as you are about the prospects of a GME unit at Tynecastle, but as a Craiglockhart parent I observe the Tynecastle angst every day in the playground and it's frankly grim.
Overall I would agree though that the catchment areas for the 'good' schools are a bit mad. Dundee Terrace isn't in catchment for Boroughmuir but Fairmilehead is – what sort of sense does it make? (Selfishly, with a child in P4 and no prospects of buying property in the next couple of years I would really not be looking forward to any catchment review in our part of town in the next few years though.)
@crowriver, I doubt there is room at the new JGHS for an annexe. I don't think that it is down to a few voters either. I think the proponents of Gaelic medium have the ear of the govt?
@piosad - your - use the NEPN network metaphor is not bad, though the new tynecastle is a lovely new school compared to the old tynie.
"But I have indeed derailed this thread quite enough I think"
CCE doesn't work like that.
"I don't think you are that off topic"
Says the master of linguistic misplacement.
Just be aware all that this is a very public forum.
Not suggesting that anything here has gone close to any edges, but this is clearly an issue with issues.
Class, catchments, house prices, address sitting, opinions, prejudice, etc. Gaelic is an entertaining addition.
"I am just exasperated at the paralysis shown by councillors (not officials I might add) when faced with making decisions which might upset a few voters"
As 'we' know, it's not just education!
I wonder if catchments will be mentioned by many candidates next May...
Was all up for sending the wee one to the local secondary - Tynecastle, til I realised the Irvine Welsh novel I was reading was set there.
But seriously Tynecastle seems fine. I know a few children who go there and are getting on well.
"I think the proponents of Gaelic medium have the ear of the govt?"
And of course SG seems set on reducing/removing LA involvement in schools generally.
I'm mildly surprised the SG hasn't instantly blamed LAs for the recent PISA downgrading.
Maybe they realise that education is 'complicated' - more than just certain local difficulties...
"til I realised the Irvine Welsh novel I was reading was set there"
That'll be the old one gembo referred to!
"I observe the Tynecastle angst every day in the playground and it's frankly grim"
"I know a few children who go there and are getting on well"
Just to complicate the discussion, I know various London living parents who (generally pre-Academies) had all sorts of angst about 'the local comp' and declined 'private' (for financial and/or ideological reasons) kids seem to have done/doing fine.
London of course has plenty of places with very contrasting housing types/tenures in small/catchment areas.
"there was an out of the blue announcement that effectively pitted the interloping GME pupils against the good catchment burghers."
As stated up thread, the proposal has been on the table for at least six years. Hardly out of the blue, but each time it comes up for discussion at committee, it is dropped after a big stushie including articles in the papers quoting outraged parents of GME pupils...
@gembo, the proposal for an annexe was described in the paper as follows:
---
To solve capacity issues at James Gillespie’s and Boroughmuir, officials suggest turning the Darroch facility on Gillespie Street, just off Gilmore Place, into a permanent annexe that the two schools could use for teaching.
But as this would cost £7.2m, they add “further investigative work will be carried out to identify any lower-cost alternatives to provide the necessary accommodation”.
They continue: “Due to the necessity to develop and deliver a solution by August 2019 it is essential that a draft statutory consultation paper on establishing a permanent annexe for James Gillespie’s High School and Boroughmuir High School is prepared and brought to committee in March 2017.
“This paper will focus on the use of Darroch unless a lower cost acceptable option can be identified within that timeframe.”
---
"lower cost" AND "acceptable" (to whom?) seem to be the difficult terms to join together as far as this situation is concerned. It's frankly ridiculous that the councillors refuse to move the GME unit from Gillespie's or review the Boroughmuir catchment.
Q: 'how many schools have used Darroch as an annexe (or for decanting)?'
A: don't know - but it's a lot!
Now there's a proposal to use it for TWO schools?!
Yep. All to avoid "difficult" decisions on relocating GME (because disruption/angry parents) and reviewing catchments (because property prices/angry parents).
Surely there are more sensible priorities to spend £7.2 million on education provision within the city?
Ah, good old Darroch, used by many, loved by none. Not sure it is viable option in the modern age, stairwells built for smaller people?
Well, Darroch was used latterly for S4,5 and 6 from Gillespies before the new school was completed, so presumably can cope with senior pupils.
Gilespies is only a good school for well behaved, motivated pupils; if your child has any problems, they are absolutely hopeless (and they cannot cope with the concept that a child may have more than one parental house).
Typically, since this is Edinburgh, maintenance of the new building is non existent and design problems are not being addressed. The pupils notice things like the lack of door stops leading to damage to walls. JGHS response was to cover holes in the wall with sheets of paper...
"Gilespies is only a good school for well behaved, motivated pupils; if your child has any problems, they are absolutely hopeless (and they cannot cope with the concept that a child may have more than one parental house). "
Whereas Drummond Community High School is very good at catering for pupils with additional support needs. A bright spot in an otherwise "very diverse" school as the euphemism goes...
"
Questions certainly have to be asked about the population forecasts used for building the new Boroughmuir and James Gillespie’s high schools. But the council is far from alone in being so wide of the mark with this inexact science. Just look at the shortage of beds at the Royal Infirmary.
The real issue is the underlying problems caused by the city’s mushrooming population. There are, of course, many good things about being a place where people want to live – the opposite problem is far worse. But unless the city is able to plan and provide for all these extra people then it will be the ruin of Edinburgh.
"
"The city has shown a willingness to grasp the nettle by ordering initial work to begin on building an overspill annexe for a high school that hasn’t even been completed yet. That is the right thing to do."
No it is not!
In other news, city bypass to be widened to 10 lanes at a cost of £x million to accommodate extra traffic. It's the "right thing to do".
But unless the city is able to plan and provide for all these extra people
Or the state could try to make other places just as attractive as Edinburgh so that they're happy to go elsewhere?
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