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SNP Propose Motion to Support Road Share Campaign for Stricter Liability

(77 posts)
  • Started 10 years ago by Schemieradge
  • Latest reply from Schemieradge

  1. crowriver
    Member

    "SNP could adopt strict liability as a manifeso pledge with debate on subject at party conference"

    That's "could" as in, SNP could abandon the Council Tax freeze; could introduce a Land Value Tax instead; could decentralise decision making and devolve more powers to local authorities; could restructure local government to be more democratic and truly local; could stop building pointless dual carriageways; could electrify Scotland's entire rail network instead of pushing for HSR 'twixt Edina and Glasvegas; could invest large amounts in a decent network of segregated cycling infrastructure in Scotland's cities and towns...

    It "could" do all these things. What are the chances though?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  2. chdot
    Admin

    "SNP could adopt strict liability as a manifeso pledge with debate on subject at party conference"

    The key word is "debate".

    So far it's been between minister/civil servant and 'cycle campaigners' - largely behind closed doors.

    This time it's by SNP activists more publicly.

    I assume they will be well briefed.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  3. LaidBack
    Member

    chdot Why not motorist v other motorists?

    Your enemy's enemy is your friend?

    I have leaflets at shop for Cycle Law Scotland. I was told that this is a campaign for PL -Presumed Liability. Strict liabiilty was considered too extreme I think. Not sure if that's me misunderstanding the SL campaign - just come to this thread late.
    Scottish law does allow three verdicts normally. Innocent, Guilty and Not Proven.

    Cycle Law Scotland - Presumed Liability

    Posted 10 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    "Scottish law does allow three verdicts normally. Innocent, Guilty and Not Proven."

    That's for criminal cases. PL would not apply in criminal prosecutions, it's for civil matters like compensation, insurance, etc.

    That's a large part of the misapprehensions about this, folk assume it will mean drivers getting prison time: nothing like that.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  5. LaidBack
    Member

    Right - civil law of course. My mis-understanding probably replicated by a few others then.

    Anyway - is Presumed Liability same as or softer version of SL?

    Posted 10 years ago #
  6. Schemieradge
    Member

    Presumed liability is where the less vulnerable person is presumed liable unless they can prove fault is with the person they hit.
    Strict liability means the fault is always with the less vulnerable person no matter what (I think).

    RoadShare are proposing presumed liability except for under 14's and over 70's where strict liability would apply.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    "is Presumed Liability same as or softer version of SL?"

    I'm no lawyer (WC in da house?) but I think it's identical. The "softer" language is just to try and not frighten the horsepower enthusuasts in HM Gov (Scottish branch office) I presume.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  8. Cyclingmollie
    Member

    I think I've also seen the SNP proposal referred to as Stricter Liability.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  9. gembo
    Member

    Spoke to former SNP MSP today and he confirms the party does not need to accept motions that are passed at conference. He is not a delegate so cannot vote but says he will look out for the motion

    Posted 10 years ago #
  10. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Do I understand correctly that the motion before the SNP is basically presumed liability, plus strict liability for the under 14s and over 70s?

    For me presumed liability wouldn't make it into the top ten reasons why cycling in Holland is more pleasant than here, but it would be a bonus if we had it. If I were to campaign for presumed liability in as non EEN-antagonising a way as possible, the argument would go something like as follows.

    1. Presumed liability does not transfer liability for accidents, it transfers the burden of proof to the party likely to have been responsible.

    2. We already have presumed liability in this country. If one car hits another car from behind, the car behind is presumed to be at fault unless they can prove that the car in front did something to cause the accident. So presumed liability isn't a radical untested concept.

    3. Presumed liability has been effective in the case of cars hitting from behind because it deals with a type of situation where one party was almost always to blame, and if that party wasn't to blame then there must have been a clear action from the other 'presumed innocent' party which can be shown to have caused the accident.

    4. This situation is similar to that of collisions between cars and more vulnerable road users, in which statistics show that cars are almost always liable according to the current law, but that this can be difficult to demonstrate in court.

    The only difficult point is that I don't have any statistics to back up the fourth point. There's a table towards the bottom of this article which shows how a large number of accidents are caused solely by the car, but I don't have the full table, or know where it came from, and it concerns only cyclists rather than all vulnerable road users.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    UtrechtCyclist, some of us had similar thoughts last year on 'strict liability' and whether or not it was a distraction in the pursuit of physical safety.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=10406&page=2#post-114533

    Posted 10 years ago #
  12. LaidBack
    Member

    On radio this morning.

    Mark Beaumont explained the case very clearly about the non-criminal hierarchy of care this motion proposes.

    On iPlayer - push it to past the first hour to 1.02
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04nrnkl

    Posted 10 years ago #
  13. LaidBack
    Member

    Insurance costs dropped in Scandinavia and other places apparently. So Presumed Liability could save money? Add to that the personal costs of dealing with injury and worse and this measure must make sense in a modern country (if that is what we want to be).

    'We need a culture of tolerance....' Callers in were not as negative as they would have been in past. Small handful of 'I saw someone doing something wrong when I was in my car'.
    Mark Beaumont just turned it round neatly though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  14. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    12.36pm GMT12:36

    After a rather high-brow debate about the legal implications of “stricter liability”, the cycling motion (see 12.12pm) got remitted back (ie, sent back for a rethink).

    But delegates did back the motion supporting the Aberdeen-Elgin-Inverness rail upgrade. They have now stopped for lunch.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  15. PS
    Member

    Sent back for a rethink by whom?

    (ie, who is doing the rethink and what do they need to rethink?)

    Posted 10 years ago #
  16. Schemieradge
    Member

    Sent back for a rethink by whom?

    exactly.. sounds kind of like a euphemism for "kicked into the long grass". hopefully not though.

    Posted 10 years ago #
  17. Schemieradge
    Member

    Jim Orr (Twitter):
    ‏"It means put on pause to return to again, perhaps next year. Not a bad result. Still work 2 do."

    Posted 10 years ago #

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