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post-collision paperwork

(99 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by wingpig
  • Latest reply from le_soigneur
  • This topic is resolved

12…4

  1. wingpig
    Member

    When the police turned up last Friday to record my being punted off sideways by an [epithet] on Albion Road, one of the things I was careful about was making sure that the police taking down my side of the story didn't under-record the potential repair cost, particularly when he said something along the lines of "the frame won't have been damaged, will it?" which I didn't think it was his place to judge, no matter how many crashes he's attended. I'd made sure I'd mentioned that despite the obvious bent front wheel and non-rotating rear that the frame, mechanisms and attachments could also have been banjoed. Both polices seemed very keen for me to go with the [epithet]'s "I'll pay cash for any damage" statements, citing the popularity of this technique and the lack of any need to bother addressing any insurance companies.

    Unfortunately, it has been determined that the frame has indeed been banjoed, so I shall be sending an itemised demand to the [epithet] this evening for at least £350 in components (varying depending on what can be found to replace the 2011/2 Kaff, which no longer comes in rear-canti-boss flavour) plus the cost of them being reassambled. From my limited post-event communications with the [epithet] I'm concerned that there might be some sort of "but you can get a whole bike for £80 from a supermarket"-type response.

    What has anyone else's experience of extracting repair/replacement costs from a perpetrator been like?

    Secondarily, what's the deal with the whole being-crashed-into thing and the police? There was a distinct "yes, you've done the right thing by calling us, but we usually expect people to just sort out repair costs and so on privately" sort of tone to what they were saying. I wanted it recording somewhere on the police's systems that this had happened. I presume that if the [epithet] had failed the breathalyser test he was being given when I shouldered my bike and set off for the eldest's winter festive play that the police would take this up with him directly, but what about the driving, which might well be considered to have been performed without due care and attention? Is it up to me to demand something be done with this, including supplying the police with the phone number of the witness, which they didn't want at the time?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. gembo
    Member

    work colleague was knocked off by uninsured driver in Chambers Street. Police very keen to pursue, Cycle LEgal Law Firm extracted the money for a large number of items. I also benefitted from loan of the old trousers, damaged but better than my dad's old golfing ones.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. Dave
    Member

    I think what you want is a crime number. From what I understand, they can only get one to pass on to you if they actually enter it into their systems (as opposed to what might have happened, which is that they scribbled something in a notepad, gave the driver a wink after your back was turned and let him on his way).

    This is only to help you with your civil claim and won't encourage them to do anything about it in the crime sense, except that if you force them to record it they'll need to do some basic housekeeping to avoid it doing damage to their stats.

    Good luck getting the police to actually charge the driver, as I presented them with video evidence of a guy waving his mobile at me after narrowly avoiding a pile up and this still wasn't sufficient.

    WRT the repair cost, the simplest thing to do is present this as the repair quote from a bike shop. Don't itemize it, unless you want it to seem like you are giving them a menu to pick and choose from.

    If I was involved in a car crash and someone sent me a list of individual car parts I would be confused.

    Also, don't forget that you need to include labour in your costs. EBC charge £85 to build a bike.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. SRD
    Moderator

    Given all those news stories about £10000 bikes, they might consider themselves lucky? who knows. Dave's strategy re quote sounds very sound.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. wingpig
    Member

    I think they did an on-the-spot check for tax or insurance, based on what I overheard.
    I was going to at least prepare the bill in itemised form to make it clear what's in it, including things the driver might not have considered susceptible like the rear tyre (tread deeply gouged by the bolt from the light being dragged into it as the rack and mudguard stays deformed) and the rack (joins and attachment-points intact, but bent, and thus no longer able to accept (or be trusted with) a child-seat), just to give it a bit of grounding in case the driver doesn't know what bike things cost and says anything other than "marvellous! consider it paid!" upon first being apprised of the total.

    Don't know what to do yet regarding the absence of rear canti bosses on the currently-available direct-replacement frame, which complicates matters with respect to the rear wheel and the facility to apply braking force thereto.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. Darkerside
    Member

    Are you a member of CTC? They've got a crash advice line: http://www.ctc.org.uk/incidentline

    I dealt with a smaller value incident (£100) by:
    - Getting the incident number from the police.
    - Getting my bike repair guy to quote for making the bike better (including his labour and parts).
    - Emailing the quote to the culprit, with the option of transfering cash or telling me who his insurance company was.
    - He chose cash, so that sorted it. If not, I'd have rung up the insurance company with the police ID number and probably bounced around their phone system a bit. I hoped this was where the CTC line would be helpful.

    I think the key bit was the repair quote on headed paper (edit: because if the situation was reversed, I wouldn't accept a quote prepared by a driver—I'd be after something from a garage)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. wingpig
    Member

    I believe I muttered something about the driver not trying the same trick with a fancy full-carbon roadie unless he fancied forking out thousands for the frame alone to the frame-doubting police.

    I'd been poking at the CTC/BC things recently, precisely for this sort of thing, but never joined. I was given a crime number on the phone when calling the police, which seemed to be triggered more by the "I hit the ground and am bleeding" than the "someone ran into me" aspect.

    Hannah at The Cycle Service will be providing a quote for rebuild labour-costs. I'm not spending another January with my primary bike in bits on a stand in the least-child-accessible corner of the house if someone else can pay someone else to rebuild it for me.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. Darkerside
    Member

    Could always join now and then use the advice line? £41.50 (you've just reminded me to renew my own)

    A late PS: I take it you're ok? I seem to have missed the human bit of this crash...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. Snowy
    Member

    Sadly many policepersons still seem to treat most traffic incidents involving a bicycle quite lightheartedly. Almost as though you've been knocked off your spacehopper, or something, rather than nearly been killed by an attention-deficient idiot.
    Anyway, glad you're ok.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. wingpig
    Member

    Aye, fine, ta. Elbow scraped/bruised, ankle scraped, leg scratched, buttock bunted: nothing which prevented me from immediately leaping to my feet to bellow at his windscreen. Hooray for very loose pedal-clips, which detached without me noticing, possibly preventing complication of my landing.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. gembo
    Member

    @darkerside - I went straight to the technical as had already expressed my condolences about the wheels which were bunted [not the word wingpig used] on The Facebook.

    Lest you think me inhuman at this Xmas Yuletide period.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. Darkerside
    Member

    I cast not aspersions at your humanity, gembo.

    If spoken, cunning use of vocal stress would have emphasised that I was judging myself for an apparent lack of sympathy, rather than condemning the parish as a whole.

    Wingpig: charge for replacing damaged clothing too. Something I forgot about, but regretted once I spotted the holes in my knee/arm warmers.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. chdot
    Admin

    "Elbow scraped/bruised ... "

    On what basis do police have discretion not to send to PF?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. Kenny
    Member

    @wingpig - glad to hear you are ok. I appear to have done myself more damage getting a chest of drawers down the stairs yesterday than you did getting hit by a car!

    I absolutely agree with @Dave's suggestion of *not* giving them an itemized list. There is no good that can come of it, other than "look at what you did!", but instead, as suggested, it will only cause the driver to start arguing the toss. I'd just give them the total quote from the shop.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. wingpig
    Member

    It'll be quote-from-shop plus the bits I noticed before taking it to the shop (tyre/rack) and the bit the shop didn't see (glubs).

    'There is no good that can come of it, other than "look at what you did!"'

    I'll go for the total first, then, but "look at what you did!" does seem like something the driver should be repeatedly reminded of, to reduce the spacehopper/playground quotient. I've already referred to myself as "the cyclist whom you knocked off my bike on Friday" and referred to the money as "...required to restore the bike you crashed into to working order", just to keep things clear.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "to restore the bike you crashed into to working order"

    Good line!

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. steveo
    Member

    Glad you're alright. I must have missed this.

    TBH I'd have got the insurance details regardless, if the guy decides to reinforce your opinion off him at least you'd have the fall back. Plus the loss of his NCB would be a bigger disincentive and probably a harder hit on his wallet than repairing your bike.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    If he goes through his insurance company (on seeing the value for example) then you’ll definitely need to do a breakdown, rather than an overall cost (when my bike got nicked, because it wasn’t an off the shelf number, I had to breakdown every single component).
     
    It’s interesting reading most people saying ‘not’ to give a breakdown – I’m not sure of the logic.. Certainly if I was the driver in such a scenario, and was provided with a bill, I’d want to know how that cost was arrived at (especially as, much as wingpig says, a total bill, even from a bike shop, may garner a reaction of ‘you could buy a whole bike for that!’). I’d personally (though I realise I’m obviously out of step on this) think a breakdown makes it very clear what has been damaged, and makes it more likely you’ll be seen as less of a chancer just looking to build up as much cost as possible.
     
    Police incident number would be requested by insurers as well (his issue, otherwise the cost is coming out of his pocket); a civil litigation claim wouldn’t require it. Certainly it would mean that the police report could be accessed in a civil action (this is all if he refused to pay and his insurance company refused to pay and the only recourse was a court action), and lodged as evidence – though the police should be maintaining records (in line with data protection laws) regardless of whether they issue an incident number or not (the report will include personal details, therefore fall into the remit of the DPA, and files therefore have to be kept ‘as long as is required’, which would be the statutory length of time before charges can no longer be brought, and likely beyond that to be on the safe side – the record certainly won’t be just destroyed because it’s not been given a number, and as far as I’m aware it WILL be given a number because it was an incident the police attended)…
     
    As for what the police have discretion on…. Not sure. My other half is an ex PF, I’ll ask her tonight.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. LaidBack
    Member

    Good points here...

    CS will get the whole thing down on paper. All adds up.

    Did paperwork here for Alan R and insurance did pay up. Included cost of examining bike too and doing the paperwork. I think it's the only way otherwise people think it's 'just a bike' and continue as before.
    Glad your own injuries aren't too severe... stressfest though.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. wingpig
    Member

    As the direct-replacement frame no longer has canti bosses but is significantly cheaper than an equivalent canti-bossed other-make frame it gets fiddly. Can't remember offhand if the rear wheel made it, but if it didn't then it's easier to have the replacement rear wheel be equivalent-value disc-hubbed rather than exact-model.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. Kenny
    Member

    That's a good counter argument, @WC. I'm not sure where I stand now. If a breakdown was to be listed, then if that was done by the shop in their quote, then that would be better than you listing bits yourself, because that might look like you're trying to sneak in an upgrade.

    "to restore the bike you crashed into to working order"

    Good line!

    I disagree, merely because the driver may claim it was not in working order to begin with; at which point, how do you define 'working order'? Maybe some line that suggests that you want it restored to the state it was in before he ran you over? That at least draws a line that everyone could agree on. Except, of course, that only you can define what order it was in in the first place ;)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    Might be worth calling these guys: http://www.cycling-accident-compensation.co.uk/

    If you were hurt, the bike was damaged, clothing was damaged, Police were involved, it would be easy to miss/forget something if you were DIY'ing it.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. wingpig
    Member

    The 2014 Kaff is a downgrade from the 2012, with the non-swappable dropouts, lack of canti bosses and snot/earwax colour scheme.

    I like a cheap frame for reducing the nickableness and thus increasing the omni-useability.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. wingpig
    Member

    EEEEP. [epithet] has been emailed: nearly seven hundred of the Queen's pounds, including labour.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. Instography
    Member

    £700 is a bargain. I'd have gone for a complete replacement. The new Croix de Fer is lovely.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. Dave
    Member

    £700 obviously wouldn't buy a complete new Kaff, so I'm not suggesting this is an issue here, but what happens if the cost of fixing the bike is more than the value of it?

    i.e. a nice carbon frame can be hand repaired by a specialist using x-ray machines etc. but it would be cheaper to buy another - are you within your rights to insist that your property is made good at any price (I'm guessing not?)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. wingpig
    Member

    "...but what happens if the cost of fixing the bike is more than the value of it?"

    The value of it could be defined as the cost to replace the bits plus the cost to assemble.

    At about 15:00 on Friday I had a lightish/fastish/sturdy-ish fully-working rack-sporting front-rack-eyelet-having mudguarded dynamo-lit bullhorn-barred steel-framed bicycle, the frame only on the road for ten months, the wide/strong front rim only a couple of months old, the rear wheel sturdy enough to be still straight after nine months of heavy commuting, the reach just a little bit longer than my previous bike and much more comfortable as a result. That is what [epithet] broke shortly after 15:00, so that is what should be restored. It is perhaps unfortunate that such things are not available off-the-peg, which is going to mean some rebuild-time/cost even if the nearest-equivalent acceptable-to-all-parties component-basis ends up being a whole bicycle.

    ***

    Mr [epithet] has already questioned the estimate and costs in his replies this morning.

    wpg (email):[~£700ish]

    [e] (SMS):"I want 3 estimates"

    wpg (SMS): That will mean two more inspection/estimate charges to be reimbursed on top of the one already incurred.

    [e] (SMS):"For the cost you got for getting the bike fixed I could buy a brand new bike"

    ...

    This is where it might be necessary to describe the customizations. It'll give me something to do before I can retrieve the bike when the shop re-opens after the winter festive period and drag it somewhere else.

    Bicycle Works are the obvious next choice for another quote, but then who?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. steveo
    Member

    I know you can indetify the half wit, but I'd really be contacting his insurance company. They'd probably just pony up with out all the messing around, he'll put it off and mess you around for all eternity.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. wingpig
    Member

    Are his insurance details something the police would be able to supply me with if I go to them if I continue to be stalled and/or not be supplied with insurance details?

    "They'd probably just pony up with out all the messing around"

    I made the possible mistake of reading tales of dragged-out woe on the CTC forums yesterday.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. Instography
    Member

    No, most shops and insurance assessors would decide that once the cost of repairs came close to the cost of the closest reasonable replacement, the repairs would be uneconomic and would stump up for a new one.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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