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Do we need a GE2015 thread?

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  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Spent 5 mins trying to find something good about Lincolnshire.

    Sausages?

    Mrs T came from there

    Michael Gove comes from Edinburgh and was raised in Aberdeen but I won't hold that against either place.

    Interestingly, the only 1 of the nominal "Scottish Party" leaders who you could actually vote for this time round is Jim Murphy. Nicola Sturgeon is a constituency MSP. Patrick Harvie, Ruth Davidson and Willie Rennie are list MSPs. Jabba the Coburn is (to my undying chagrin) an MEP.

    I think the Eds Milliballs would do the Labour campaign in Scotland plenty of good if they butted out from their sweeping SNP = doom declarations (see today's news) on their flying visit from Westminster and left it to Jim to get on his Irn Bru crate, which seemed to work to some extent (even if it was disaster limitation) last time round. Surely someone in Labour's Scottish campaign office must realise that 3 cardboard cutout white, male, approaching middle-ages politicians in dark suits and ties in various shades of red-through-purple holding press conferences for the benefit of the assembled shipped-in cameras and journalists isn't going to reach out to the kind of folks who appeared to have declared their intention to no longer vote for them. But what do I know?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  2. chdot
    Admin

    Poachers

    Posted 9 years ago #

  3. SRD
    Moderator

    "[Labour] could (unlikely) decide to be in favour of Independence and/or not renewing Trident."

    Can anyone explain why labour is so unmovable on trident? never understood it myself.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    I think the Eds Milliballs would do the Labour campaign in Scotland plenty of good if they butted out

    Seems I'm not the only one who thinks this... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/apr/10/david-cameron-and-ed-miliband-told-to-stay-away-by-constituencies

    Posted 9 years ago #

  5. Nelly
    Member

    I had an interesting and illuminating twitter / email debate with my MP Ian Murray about TTIP.

    He gave a reasoned and sensible "politicians" response, although Labour wont guarantee any NHS safeguards.

    The problem is, even if he's a good guy, even if he gives me a sensible answer, he is still part of the Labour machine that (in my opinion) lied and in conjunction with the tories, deceived us during the indyref campaign.

    There is no way back,the bridges have been burned.

    And I voted labour in every Local, Euro, General election for the last 30 years !

    Posted 9 years ago #

  6. Edinburgh Cycle Training
    Member

    "Can anyone explain why labour is so unmovable on trident? never understood it myself."

    Its a post that if you nurture, you can do very well for yourself out of. George Robertson may have taken that to the extreme, but I wouldn't be surprised to find many former defence ministers, junior ministers and shadow ministers still have friends and paymasters in the defence industry and its lobbying offshoots.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    "Can anyone explain why labour is so unmovable on trident?"

    Mostly because they don't want to admit they don't believe this -

    A credible nuclear deterrent, Bernard Brodie wrote in 1959, must be always at the ready, yet never used

    - just in case anyone dared to suggest they could stab the UK in the back...

    Posted 9 years ago #

  8. gembo
    Member

    @nelly, labour and Tories did not have a monopoly on lies during the Indyref. Nor at any other time.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The argument over Britain’s nuclear weapons is too important to be reduced to the hurling of cheap insults

    "

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/joyce-mcmillan-nuance-needed-in-debate-on-trident-1-3742288

    Posted 9 years ago #

  10. slowcoach
    Member

    Can anyone explain why labour is so unmovable on trident? never understood it myself.
    You might not have noticed it but the Tories have attacked Labour for being willing to consider an alternative to 4 Trident submarines (even if that alternative is just a 25% reduction). Most of the MPs who voted against starting to renew Trident in 2007 were Labour.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11325940/Ed-Miliband-hints-he-may-back-replacing-Trident-with-cheaper-system.html

    Posted 9 years ago #

  11. Nelly
    Member

    Gembo, I am not daft enough to think that!

    But the SNP spinmeisters were up against a mighty No machine, including most of the UK media.

    The issue of the supposed additional powers and how that all panned out (must chat to lord kelvin and find out) was the last straw for me.

    We all understand that politicians lie for strategic advantage, but in the macro (UK) arena it almost feels acceptable.

    What happened last year was too close to home, too personal, to simply ignore.

    However you feel, and whatever side of the debate, Scotland now feels like a proper grown up political nation, and now has a potentially large degree of power nationally - which I can only see as positive.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  12. wee folding bike
    Member

    Some people reckon that it assures the UK of a permeant seat on the UN.

    It might make politicians feel important.

    The UK doesn't really have that many nukes and the other 6 could get along without us. The percentage difference in fire power would be negligible.

    They didn't stop Mr Putin doing whatever he wanted in Ukraine and you can't use them against planes flying into buildings. Even Mrs T didn't use them against the Junta in '82. I do like that word, junta.

    They also don't result in 10,000 jobs in Helensburgh. It seems closer to 500. I'm not suggesting that WMDs are a good job creation scheme even if they did employ 10.000.

    kaputnik, I'm more of a Quorn/glamorgan sausage eater. Mushroom and Blue Stilton pastie for tea this evening.

    Mmmmmmmmm, Stilton. Almost as good as Nurse Gladys Emanuel.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  13. gembo
    Member

    Cauldron foods do their excellent tofu sausages in Lincolnshire or Cumberland versions. One is more peppery than others.

    I am going with Rose Elliot's spinach tian but with brown rice. Never made it before.

    In the Ruhr valley the Germans closed all the steel works etc. And many workers were re-employed as guides in the Ruhr Valley Industrail Museums. Maybe faslane and rosyth could be developed to attract the lovely tourists?

    Lincoln cathedral is nice.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  14. wee folding bike
    Member

    Never been. I'll be in Dorset again this summer. I want to see the village in the MOD shooting range. It's open at the weekend. Last summer was the first I'd had a smart phone so I could wander off round Purbeck and get the phone to guide me home. I did carry the OS map. Indeed I just found it while looking for a Glasgow Art Deco book.

    I'll get a weekend in London too. I'm planning a look at the Regent's canal one day and a bridge zig zag on the Sunday. I should be able to do Tower to Albert bridges before the management and boys wake up.

    The management made mushroom and Stilton pasties because the pastry was out of date and there were mushrooms in the fridge.

    Rosyth has some rusting subs which I wouldn't be keen to go near.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  15. gembo
    Member

    @nelly both campaigns in Indyref spinning like crazy. That is why I went out to ask people what they thought. The lottery millions bought an awful lot of posters, t-shirts and other merchandise that the No, thanks side got no where near matching. The Yes campaign went big on social media and indeed populating live debates with so called neutrals, who you could spot clapping Mr a Salmond.

    Establishment figures such as miliband compo and clegg were felt to be vote losers if they strayed North of Carlisle.

    I am not seeking to prove anything just that they were all at it and always will be (except maybe thegreens). Your late shifting narrative because of lies is perfectly valid. See also I never left the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    "I never left the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me."

    So are you going to (try to) grab/steer it back?

    Posted 9 years ago #

  17. SRD
    Moderator

    just saw this on twitter: "Growing bloc of Labour MPs against Trident policy of Murphy, Miliband and Alexander"

    https://twitter.com/siliconglen/status/586570900457283585

    if you follow the link from the tweet, you should be able to see article, but not (i think) if I link direct.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  18. wee folding bike
    Member

    I think the final accounting had No spending more.

    Summary here. You can click Yes/No radio buttons to make it easier to read.

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/campaign-spending-and-donations-at-referendums/donations-and-loans-reported-by-campaigners-at-the-scottish-referendum

    And the BBC was paid for by all of us.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  19. LaidBack
    Member

    Trident is all about job creation (in the USA!).

    I'm very suspicious of a defence policy that leaves no long distance airborne maritime cover and spends resources on 'invisible' submarines carrying 'revenge' weaponry.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  20. wee folding bike
    Member

    The subs are made in Barrow and they get more visible if they crash into Skye.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  21. Stickman
    Member

    Perhaps the old suggestion for Danish defence policy is the best one for small European countries:

    Scrap the entire armed forces and replace them with an answerphone message saying "We surrender" in Russian.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  22. wee folding bike
    Member

    Blog suggesting that nothing has changed and as a result everything will.

    https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/the-no-change-election-2689045badfc

    Posted 9 years ago #

  23. LaidBack
    Member

    Barrow can still make subs. Just ones that don't carry M.A.D. weaponry.

    The warheads are from USA though aren't they? We all know how defence companies always inflate prices. With a weapon as dangerous as Trident I'm sure nothing is done cheaply ;-)

    As far as being vulnerable to aggression. Part of the Russian fleet moored in the Moray Firth recently. Our nuclear shield didn't bother them that much then. (Or some may believe that it was only our nuclear weapons that stopped them landing in Inverness!)

    Posted 9 years ago #

  24. gembo
    Member

    @wfb we were on the dorset and devon border last summer. Nice weather. On the devon side favourite beaches were Branscombe (national trust village with functioning water wheel) and Beer, very big pebbles and very good name. Had great coffee shoppe but let down by its name (Osborne's). on the Dorset side, lyme Regis is great and charmouth for fossils is a good day out with carte Blanche to smash bits of the beach up with a hammer. Bridport also got us into broadchurch. I would like to visit Tolpuddle.

    Back on topic, must Google the Institute of fiscal Studies as they are clearly a Labour Party propaganda unit.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  25. gembo
    Member

    On donations - herald SCOTLAND reported in May 2014 that Largs couple gave £4.5 million to Yes Scotlnd. They subsequently gave another £500k each. I think this was actually straight to SNP? But not sure and individuals are free to spend their money how they like.

    More on donations - Christians for Independence gave decent donation to the Yes Campaign. No idea who they are, no suggestion they are linked to bus companies etc. In interest of fairness plenty bonkers sounding organisations donating to the the No side.

    @chdot, I am not trying to steer anything. I am merely objecting to what appears to be a trend. The SNP has been in power for a fair few years and yet still projects itself as anti-establishment. Nice spin. Labour or Tories can still be blamed for everything. Quite clever.

    From my own jaundiced perspective, rationale people of my acquaintance seem to abandon their critical faculties when it comes to the SNP. Previously, it was the same for Labour. I am only pointing out the similarity between the two parties now.

    I grew up with a mum who was a Labour Party activist. but I did not join the Labour Party. I liked michael foot, I liked the young Neil Kinnockio (predictive spelling did that auto magically which is scary) , I liked Tony Benn, still have time for Dennis Skinner. I am a Dinosaur but I am not an apologist for the labour party. I just see the SNP ploughing the same furrow.

    I liked early SSP, and now I think I might be going green. Well Lincoln Green.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  26. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Can anyone explain why labour is so unmovable on trident?
    It's one of a few of Atlee's policies they're still hanging on to?

    Maybe faslane and rosyth could be developed to attract the lovely tourists?

    Rosyth was made the sole location for nuclear submarine refitting work in 1984. It lost this privelege to Devonport in 1993. It's only association with nuclear submarines since then has been the dumping ground for the rusting fleet of seven spent nuclear attack and ballistic missile submarines. The dockyard has been in private hands since 1997. It was bought by the only bidder at a knock-down price. The only bidder (Babcock) happened to be the company contracted to run the arms-length Dockyard organisation in 1993.

    Rosyth now houses HMS Scotia, the Royal Navy reserve and university training unit for the east of Scotland. It has an overgrown, unarmed and not particularly speedy speedboat which is the sole naval vessel "covering" the east coast of Scotland (that important bit, with all its oilrigs). That's apparently a defence policy for the North Sea - hide behind (actually infront of) the nukes.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    "

    But in each case, the potential SNP gains from tactical voting are more modest than the gains that could accrue to their main opponent.

    Now, these are of course hypothetical figures. We can't be sure how many voters will appreciate the local tactical situation. However, I would expect it to save up to nine Labour MPs (such as Douglas Alexander in Paisley and Renfrewshire South) and two Liberal Democrats (including Charles Kennedy in Ross Skye and Lochaber).

    "

    http://www.channel4.com/news/snp-labour-boost-poll-nicola-sturgeon-ed-miliband-yougov

    Posted 9 years ago #

  28. wee folding bike
    Member

    Tony Benn was energy minister. It's difficult to believe he didn't see the McCrone report and yet he told us the oil would run out in the mid '90s.

    Dennis Skinner voted for the 40% rule on the '79 referendum. He might shout about Brenda but he doesn't seem a big fan of democracy in all its forms.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  29. UtrechtCyclist
    Member

    Just to inject a little optimism here, while I'm generally unimpressed with the state of political parties in the UK, and while I think our electoral system clearly needs reform, I think both the Labour party and the SNP have much better policies than they did five years ago and I'm reasonably impressed with most of my representatives on the local, Scottish and UK level (which is not at all to say that I'm impressed with the Scottish or UK governments).

    My MP is Sheila Gilmore, who I've never met but is apparently a Spokes member and has attended POP for the last three years. My MSPs include Kezia Dugdale, Marco Biaggi, Alison Johnstone and Sarah Boyack, all of whom I think are excellent. I don't know my councillors, and often get frustrated with the council, but on the whole I think they are doing a good job in extremely tough times for local government (and having done the Edinburgh budget challenge, I sure don't envy them the decisions they have to make). Andrew Burns, Lesley Hinds and Adam McVey all strike me as good people who care about the job they're doing.

    I'm probably to the left of about 75% of the UK population (and hence to the right 20-25%), and I guess both Sturgeon and Milliband probably lie there or thereabouts politically. I like Sturgeon more than I like the SNP as a whole, it's not so long ago that the SNP were promoting a low tax low regulation model of being a small country, now they appear more left wing, so I'm not really sure what to think...

    Anyway, there's a lot wrong with the world, and a lot wrong with politics, but I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

    Posted 9 years ago #

  30. PS
    Member

    There is something about getting into power that tends to make politicians more likely to want to keep things like Trident.

    I'm not going to put it down to politicians being corrupt and liars because I simply don't believe that they all are. I rather suspect that upon getting into office they are briefed by a number of well established and well respected civil service and defence figures who set out their point of view (presumably along the lines of "we need a nuclear deterrent because the consequences of not having a nuclear deterrent are x, y and z, and here's what Russia currently has pointed at us").

    They then have a very serious decision to make, with much of the evidence they are presented with pointing them towards keeping it. I'm not in the least bit surprised that on balance most of them decide we should keep it.

    Posted 9 years ago #

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