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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    the more I see a city designed around the car

    Edinburgh's problem is not that it was designed around the car; it wasn't, there's precious little of the city centre layout that is any newer than early Victorian, and then there's a good ring around that that is all pre-20th century. The problem is that we've tried to shoehorn the 20th/21st century motor traffic into the medieval-Georgo-Victorian layout that was never meant to accommodate anything other than horse-drawn traffic.

    The Georgians didn't build wide streets for any other reason than they liked wide streets and grandiose design gestures. Edinburgh's planners look upon this aesthetic gift our predecessors left us and go "ooh, goodie, median and road-edge parking AND 2 lanes of motor traffic each way". They also had no concept of managing traffic flow, so these wide streets only connect to narrower, less-grand streets at each end.

    With all these cars being encouraged into and through the city centre, the only way it's even remotely possible is to hugely downgrade the time and priority given to people on foot with infrequent and inconvenient crossings of the main roads.

    Someone from MCC observed that Roseburn Terrace was 100 years old, which is true for the majority of the tenements, but the road width and layout is quite a bit older than this, the "new" bridge was built in 1841 when the road was straightened away from the alignment to the old bridge, the road to Corstorphine and beyond along this route goes back further. It's the route Davy Balfour takes back into town in Kidnapped and even before the oldest maps and the lochs and marshes were fully drained this was the main route to the west - there used to be a series of beacons along the route to guide travellers along the safe passage at night (I believe Corstorphine Kirk still has a bracket for one of these). So really we're using a medieval route into town.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  2. Rob
    Member

    "The Georgians didn't build wide streets for any other reason than they liked wide streets and grandiose design gestures"

    I read that some wide streets were built for the health benefits of better air circulation. Seems somewhat ironic considering what we've turned them into.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  3. kaputnik
    Moderator

    Wellt he New Town was a reaction to the total squalor and unsanitary conditions in the Old Town, so there's possibly something in that. They were a bit obsessed about bad air (miasma) as the cause of all of life's ills. It took a long time for medical science to appreciate that you had to look into the water to find the causes of constant epidemics.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  4. ih
    Member

    "Coughs and sneezes spread diseases."

    Although medical science did take a while to catch on to the water borne transmission of cholera, which was a 19th century scourge in Europe (after the New Town was built) there probably are nasty air borne diseases today. I'm thinking flu pandemics, and even ebola.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  5. Stickman
    Member

    On the top deck of the bus this morning I got a good view of the congestion at Roseburn. Going east almost every vehicle is turning right onto Roseburn Street/Russell Road. West Coates is very quiet in both directions.

    And 3D Cakes had their van parked in the westbound Greenway. Again.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  6. kaputnik
    Moderator

    came through Roseburn a little bit later than usual, 9AM ish. 3D Cakes still parked in the westbound Loading Only bay. Workies transit and trailer parked half in eastbound lane and half on pavement outside 3D Cakes. Traffic queued all the way back to Western Corner, as observed by Stickman it's nearly dead along West Coates, everyone turning south at the Roseburn Bar.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  7. Klaxon
    Member

    Phase 5 TROs are out

    https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20016/roads_travel_and_parking/263/view_or_comment_on_traffic_orders

    RSO/16/13 Leith Walk Brunswick Street to Montgomery Street
    TRO/16/58 Leith Walk Brunswick Street to Montgomery Street

    The Annandale St junction is uh... interesting. I'm going to sleep on it before trying to judge it's merit.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  8. chdot
    Admin

    Well I don't understand the large amount of "Existing footway re-determined as cycle track" outside the Youth Hostel.

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/8203/plan_2_rso_1613.pdf

    Posted 7 years ago #
  9. Klaxon
    Member

    The TRO gives some insight.. it's to facilitate cycle right turns in every direction. By putting some shared use signs on a very busy and important bit of pavement.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  10. ih
    Member

    Looks like on all 4 of those busy corners it is planned to have people on bikes and pedestrians jostling around getting on each other's nerves and fighting for the same space. Genius.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  11. chdot
    Admin

    "By putting some shared use signs on a very busy and important bit of pavement."

    Yeah, that's the bit I don't understand!

    Are they trying to get maximum objections?

    Not my idea of 'taking road space'.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  12. Klaxon
    Member

    The drawings are dated June and I don't remember any consultation for this phase. If I'd seen one, I'd have strongly represented at that stage against any shared use pavement of the sort outside the youth hostel.

    TRO is supposed to be a technical and finalish phase of planning as the legal wording is quite a handful to draft so it's not a good time to be saying 'go back to the drawing board'

    I don't want to see the rest of the uncontroversial Haddington Pl resurfacing held up but if some constructive revisions could take place I wouldn't mind seeing this junction slip into a later phase as the shared use is awful.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  13. crowriver
    Member

    It looks a bit messy. However it also looks quite a lot safer than the current layout.

    I'll wager all this shared use at junctions is to avoid having to make the entire junction green signals for pedestrians and cyclists simultaneously. That is presumably in order to facilitate Traffic Flow: the great god that must not be angered lest He wreak His revenge on mere mortals...

    Posted 7 years ago #
  14. Klaxon
    Member

    There's a lot to be a fan of in the removal of all the nasty pedestrian islands and the deprioritisation of Montgomery St into a local access to Elm Row.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  15. Stickman
    Member

    This evening during rush hour two fire engines sped through Roseburn Terrace with their lights/sirens on. They managed this despite the road being reduced to two lanes because of illegal parking on both the north and south sides.

    Any word on members of the stakeholder group yet?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  16. Stickman
    Member

    New signs in shop windows today:

    "REVISED OPTION B YES PLEASE"

    The illegally parked car right outside the shop door is completely unrelated.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  17. Stickman
    Member

    Oh *******.

    PG is now on Murrayfield Community Council.

    I'm moving to Copenhagen.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  18. daisydaisy
    Member

    I'm learning Swedish. I've had it with this country.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  19. gembo
    Member

    Madre dios

    Someone must have died to create a vacancy

    Posted 7 years ago #
  20. Rosie
    Member


    Oh *******.

    PG is now on Murrayfield Community Council.

    From what I've heard anyone who has worked closely with him tends to be very tight-lipped about the experience afterwards.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  21. stiltskin
    Member

    Well, I didn't vote for him. In fact I didn't vote for anyone. When were the elections. What was the turnout?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  22. Stickman
    Member

    No elections. If there aren't enough nominees then there is no election and everyone gets on the council. Literally self-appointed

    Posted 7 years ago #
  23. ih
    Member

    Are there any "sensible" people on that council?

    Posted 7 years ago #
  24. Stickman
    Member

    @ih: I've a vague hope that whoever runs their Twitter account is on side. Look through the timeline: the only things they ever retweet are positive articles about cycling or reasons to build the cycle lane. Either that or they are trolling.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  25. Big_Smoke
    Member

    Calgary is looking attractive too.

    We could call a cheap shot at him if he come in wearing the suit he always hated. Then again the pressure from the position alone should cause him to crack.

    His existence in the area alone is a reason to stay out, traffic not withstanding. An absolute cad.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  26. HankChief
    Member

    Are there any "sensible" people on that council?

    I did have one council member tell me that the Committee had been like it for years and to keep doing what we were doing. However when their Transport Representative is able to tell the committee that he had already objected to the Roseburn-Canal cycle route on behalf of the committee without there being any public discussion and without any sanction from the other Committee members I don't think there is much hope.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  27. Stickman
    Member

    Tempted to send an email to MCC (copying in the local councillors) to ask what the decision making process was on this objection, whether it was discussed at MCC, whether is went to a vote etc.

    It's important that "the community" makes clear how it comes to its view.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  28. Stickman
    Member

    The antis must be planning a new stunt. As I went through this evening PG, Mr Art Shop and Mr Roseburn Cafe gabbing away; new posters in more shop windows and some A-boards with things like "30m" written on them, presumably to show the loading dimensions?

    I stopped directly opposite them and took a photo of the illegally parked cars which they were ignoring.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  29. ih
    Member

    I went through at 2.30pm. 1 car parked illegally in North side loading bay. 8 cars parked illegally in South side loading bays.

    Noticed the new signs saying "Revised Option B Yes". Revised? Is this a further variation on published option B? Only saw 5 new signs. I feel there's a hardcore of the two cafés, the framing shop, the computer shop, the pub. The rest probably not so committed.

    Posted 7 years ago #
  30. crowriver
    Member

    Just e-mail your councillor asking them to recommend axing any cycle route through Roseburn. Link up the route from Leith to NCN instead, and leave Roseburn to stew in its own juices.

    Posted 7 years ago #

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