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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. Klaxon
    Member

    It came up at the pub whether it was quicker for me (Brunswick Rd) to go via NEPN or main roads to Roseburn as it currently stands - bearing in mind the NEPN route is much longer.

    I've looked up my historic data on Strava as I felt it useful.

    Today: Home to Roseburn Bridge via York Pl, George St, NCN1 twiddles and West Coates: 4.7km 19 minutes. Pretty 'average' lights luck, some waits some roll throughs.

    Previously: Home to Roseburn Bridge via Leith St, Princes St, Shandwick Pl and the 'bus and tram only' shortcut lane: 4.4km 17 minutes

    Also Previously: Home to Roseburn Bridge via McDonald Rd and NEPN: 8.5km, 24 minutes.

    So it's about 30% slower than the fastest route and 20% slower than the existing on road signposted route.

    Comparing objectively Princes St to George St, I'll probably now choose taking the extra 2 minutes on that route vs the stress of riding along Princes St and around the Haymarket gyratory system.

    Funny - It's improvements to that exact route this thread is discussing ;)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. Stickman
    Member

    Essentially just repeating his claims on his new survey:

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/letters-to-editor-concern-over-roseburn-cycle-path-1-4261818

    As noted above, Frank Ross was complaining cyclists aren't willing to compromise. Looks like locals certainly aren't.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. fimm
    Member

    "Reports are coming in from around the UK saying that protected cycle tracks are not leading to predicted increases in cycling."
    Really? Can we see some links to those actual reports, please? How about the one that says that the number of people crossing whichever bridge in London it is has increased by 5% since the cycle track went in?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Stickman
    Member

    This evening the westbound lane on the main road outside Tesco was closed off for roadworks. Traffic was flowing exactly as it does every other night, even with the presence of the usual illegal parking outside the shops.

    When I went past there was also an ambulance and a police van parked at the end of the roadworks. Presumably they got there with blue lights/sirens on but I couldn't see what the incident was.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. gembo
    Member

    @fimm. Imaginary reports are coming in to numbskulls headquarters inside the scary mind of P Just Say NO G-son

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. HankChief
    Member

    Anybody want to take up the challenge of penning a letter to the editor with the reports where high quality protected cycle lanes are bringing an increase in people choosing to cycle?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. gembo
    Member

    The international cycling infrastructure best practice guide from TFL 2015 makes sensible reading. But as it concludes with segregated infrastructure amongst a range of other pro-cycling suggestions I cannot see it swaying the No side but for any undecideds out there it should help to see what has been done in other diverse places such as Cambridge, Minneapolis, Berlin etc

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. crowriver
    Member

    "Essentially just repeating his claims on his new survey:"

    It's called the broken record technique.

    No reason why pro-cycle route types shouldn't continue to make the same arguments as before either. I mean, nothing has changed, has it?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. wishicouldgofaster
    Member

    His survey is garbage, no options to pick enhancements for cyclists in his list of tackling congestion.

    I'm sure the spin will be no-one said a cycle lane would help congestion.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. Big_Smoke
    Member

    I'm not sure if he either needs to be kept indoors because his stupidity is a danger to the public or he needs to go out more to look at the highways in London and beyond.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Stickman
    Member

    Roadworks again this morning. No noticeable effect on traffic.

    https://youtu.be/kFU9QWEUGcQ

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. Rosie
    Member

    @Stickman - I've taken to commuting that way to Fountainbridge because Muireston is so banked up now. It's not noticeably busy until you hit the taxi ranks at Rosebery Crescent.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Stickman
    Member

    @rosie - yes, it's striking how quiet West Coates actually is, even at rush hour. Outside that time it's just a car park - although did I see notices that metered bays were being introduced there? I don't understand why it wasn't becoming 20mph.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Stickman
    Member

    Murrayfield CC meeting minutes:

    http://www.murrayfieldcc.org.uk/inc/retrieve_file.php?id=229

    R Smart reported that he had attended the walkabout at Roseburn (referred to at Item 6.3) and the subsequent discussions in Murrayfield Parish Church Centre on 4 October 2016 and had circulated a report by email to MCC, as constituted prior to the election. He referred to parts of that report, a copy of which is attached.
    Cllr Ross explained that the group in which he and R Smart had taken part in the above discussions had included one person from Sustrans and Cllr Bagshaw of the Green Party. The aim of the discussions was to sift the good from the bad and come up with a better solution. The proposals involve the gain of a 24/7 parking and loading bay on the south side of Roseburn Terrace (not just an off peak one) and the retention of an off peak one on the north side. The pavements are to be widened and changes made to the westbound bus lane. There is talk of adding a pedestrian crossing at the east end of Roseburn Terrace and changing traffic priority at Russell Road/Roseburn Street, both of which he thought were good ideas. He acknowledged that the corner at Tesco is awkward, not enough thought has been given to Roseburn Street and the bus stop on the north side of the Terrace needs to be moved back to improve visibility for cars trying to exit Roseburn Cliff. Roseburn Gardens are to be one way – downhill from the city centre direction only. There is to be a second meeting of the stakeholder group on 27 October.

    [...]

    A member of the public asked whether the revised proposals will be put to the public and was told by Cllr Ross that they will not; the Roseburn to Leith cycle track has been approved in principle and revised proposals for the Roseburn to Haymarket section delegated to the stakeholder group; the decision on their findings will be made by the transport spokespersons of the five political parties on the Council – Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democratic, Scottish National and Green.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. Frenchy
    Member

    Very interesting and, dare I say, promising?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Stickman
    Member

    Making Roseburn Gardens one-way downhill is a reasonable compromise. It addresses the traders concerns about cars circling to find parking on the main road, will reduce the amount of through traffic and will still allow one side to be closed off for bikes only. In fact, if I recall correctly I think I may even have suggested that in my response to the original consultation.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. HankChief
    Member

    The problem comes that you then have more traffic on Roseburn Place which under Option B is the route of the cycle traffic.

    Prioritising circulating parking space hunting cars over safe routes to school and work seems the wrong way round.

    If you took the cycle traffic off Roseburn Place / Gardens then it could be freed up for circulating traffic, but that would require Option A and a segregated route extended to Riversdale Crescent to take the cycle routes away from the park.

    Would solve the perceived ped/cycle conflict in the Park.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. Stickman
    Member

    @HankChief: yes, I was expecting that change to be made under Option A, not B, and I'd also made the suggestion of extending segregation to the park.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. Rosie
    Member

    Re Roseburn Park.

    I got a leaflet through my door yesterday "Roseburn Park Walk and Cycle Link". (Quiet Route 8)

    Consultation from 17 October to 25 November.

    https://consultationhub.edinburgh.gov.uk/cyclewalk

    It proposes a segregated path through Roseburn Park.

    I would certainly welcome taking cycle commuting traffic out of Roseburn Park & on to a segregated route on the A8. However the Council evidently wants to keep Roseburn Park as a main cycling route.

    Has anyone else seen the leaflet/plans?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. ih
    Member

    From the minutes
    " H Whaley stated that most of the bays on Roseburn Terrace are used for loading, not parking, and he referred to a huge uptake in cycling in London following the introduction of cycle tracks. R Smart and P Gregson disagreed on both points."

    How can Smart and Gregson disagree on indisputable facts and get away with their mendacity? I am sick of them and the local councillors. They are Neanderthals, except that's a bit harsh on those humanoids.

    Someone seems to be suggesting 24/7 parking and loading on the south side. Surely, surely the Council cannot contemplate actually removing rush hour restrictions for the sake of a couple of no hope shops. And the discussion now seems to be based on route B entirely, and even that is being further compromised! I don't want any crap scheme that will be impossible to reverse in future to be implemented. The vision should be a safe utility cycle route all along the A8 from Princes Street to Gogar, at least.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. neddie
    Member

    So, maybe 3 bays for parking 24/7?

    I'll be interested to see how they'll manage that resource. Will they:

    - charge market rates, ala supply and demand - maybe £1 for 10mins would keep the spaces turning over;
    - or, have a time limit and use the communist system of queuing for a space (queuing meaning driving round and round over the "cycle lane" on Roseburn Gdns/Pl);
    - or just let anyone park and watch the spaces get blocked all day by the shop owners?

    Any guesses...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    "H Whaley stated that most of the bays on Roseburn Terrace are used for loading, not parking"

    No doubt HankChief will be along to confirm, but the minutes must have that the wrong way round, surely.

    An accident, I'm sure.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. HankChief
    Member

    *are for* rather than *are used for*

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "Someone seems to be suggesting 24/7 parking and loading on the south side. Surely, surely the Council cannot contemplate actually removing rush hour restrictions"

    Does seem unlikely (irrespective of any Option A or B considerations).

    Perhaps it's a misunderstanding - not about 24/7 but possibly parking as well as loading?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. Frenchy
    Member

    *are for* rather than *are used for*

    And they disagreed with this?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. HankChief
    Member

    Option A has pavement build out on the south side which directs traffic away from the parking/loading. This gives the option to make the parking/loading 24/7.

    There was a suggestion to consult the shopkeepers for what mix of parking/loading would be optimum.

    Option B doesn't have the same build out so 24/7 shouldn't be considered.

    It was a confusing stakeholder meeting where suggestions from the 2 sub-groups were played back into one list, so it isn't particularly clear which option each suggestion applies to.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. HankChief
    Member

    @Frenchy And they disagreed with this?

    Oh yes...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. gembo
    Member

    Transport for London report that cycling is up 60per cent on the routes where segregated paths have been constructed. Also at peak times cycling is 70 per cent of all traffic at Blackfriars where the new segregated lane helps cyclists avoid queues of cars.

    This data comes from cycle counters.

    Obviously post truth Pete will not concern himself with data when he has hallucinated reports coming in to numbskulls HQ inside his curious mind.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. Stickman
    Member

    Hart's Cyclery and I were at the first meeting of the new Corstorphine Community Council this evening. Having sat through the negativity and hostility of the mob to the east I was pleasantly surprised by what I heard.

    A younger, more diverse council and with some positive ideas including on improving travel and the environment round the area, and listening with interest to Hart's talking about things like filtered permeability. Reaction from both new & old members was "yes, that's exactly what we need round here!". One new member had even joined after watching the Transport Committee webcast and being so annoyed with how it went!

    If MCC had the same attitude and mix then I think the problems at Roseburn would have been resolved by now. Hopefully other community councils will have similar fresh blood.

    I came away feeling that there may actually be some hope for the west side of the city, despite. Maybe we could build some kind of cycle flyover from Corstorphine skipping Roseburn entirely.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. Dave
    Member

    Anyone know which address to use to submit a letter to the editor? I'm up for a rebuttal I think.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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