The whole East West route is one of the flattest around.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL
(5535 posts)-
Posted 7 years ago #
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I always get a chuckle out of the 'Edinburgh has hills and weather' argument. I began regularly cycling when I lived in Tromsø — check it out on the map, it's basically a mountain sticking out of the sea hundreds of miles above the Arctic Circle, but cycling is feasible, not least as you're not forced onto busy roads (mostly shared pavements but you tend to see more cyclists than peds along the really busy roads...)
Posted 7 years ago # -
Post truth world allows an individual to push their views and gain traction. Despite all propositions being shown to be made up they still get regurgitated.
Requires big effort from everyone else to propel the facts into the light.
Posted 7 years ago # -
This is not generally the case- the Scotsman recently stated that Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee have each built numerous cycle routes - both on and off road - over the past 20 years, but the numbers using them on a daily basis remain stubbornly low.
This is of course absolutely true. It's the key fact in the whole affair. If you build low-grade infrastructure where and when budget and motorists allow without trying to connect it all up or link places people want to go then they don't use it.
Mr Gregson is arguing for Option A.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I've pointed Lesley Hinds at his latest
emissionmissive; her reaction suggests she ain't pleased....Posted 7 years ago # -
Cool argument - a decision made by five democratically elected councillors, representing every party on the council (including councillors who represent Roseburn) is undemocratic.
Nice of him to create a survey which will show the Sustrans one to be a model of best practice as well.
Posted 7 years ago # -
That's practically a full house on cycling fallacy bingo, there.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Just to be clear, is this promoted by the same chap who has in the past encouraged people to complete online surveys and/or petitions using false information such as zip/post codes in order to skew the results?
Posted 7 years ago # -
Just to be clear, is this promoted by the same chap who has in the past encouraged people to complete online surveys and/or petitions using false information such as zip/post codes in order to skew the results?
Aye.
Posted 7 years ago # -
So the real question is who will he be recruiting to fill in his survey with the results that he wants.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Regarding the supposed bad weather in Edinburgh, luckily this is an easy one to dispell, lots of objective measurements!
I directly compared the temperature and rain between Edinburgh and Amsterdam from the weather tables on Wikipedia:
Conclusion: Edinburgh is a lot drier than Amsterdam, very slightly warmer in winter and cooler in summer. Ideal for cycling.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Posted 7 years ago #
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Not sure when / if they'd carry it.
Monday's EEN, and the headline letter to boot.
Nice one, Dave!
Posted 7 years ago # -
Top Slot Club lives on! :-)
Posted 7 years ago # -
This quote seemed appropriate for this thread:
"But for some, I learned, no compromise could ever be enough, no consultation ever too long, and the real aim was to filibuster projects out of existence."
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
As for congestion, there are only two solutions. Either you build more roads — surely impossible — or you make better use of the roads you’ve got. Thanks to the superhighway, 52 per cent of all traffic on the Embankment is now bicycles. Just one lane of that four-lane road, which is what we took out to create the cycle track, is now carrying more traffic than the other three lanes put together.
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
"
Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf)
02/11/2016, 10:24
Active Travel Summit I announced Taskforce examine how we can introduce a presumption towards segregated cycle paths in planning guidelines"
Posted 7 years ago # -
The first part of Gilligan's point, about building new roads, is of course a fallacy as what happens is the reduced journey times encourage more journeys by car. After the 5-10 year adaptation period (people move and/or change jobs rarely) the new roads will become equally congested again to the point that public transport and/or active travel return to being quicker (and thus more desirable) modes.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"The first part of Gilligan's point, about building new roads, is of course a fallacy"
Yes, but I think his point was that (generally) in central London it wasn't even an option.
Posted 7 years ago # -
See photo
"
Daisy Narayanan (@Daisynmurphy)
02/11/2016, 11:22
@macmatt1 talking about Community Links PLUS #ActiveTravelSummit @SustransScothttp://pic.twitter.com/dFHDiycgVw
"
Posted 7 years ago # -
He's now targeting George Street businesses, despite that being part of a separate project.
Cycling officers at the Stakeholders meetings are saying that Cllr Ross's proposal to cone off route A at Roseburn in a trial will never happen. They say it will be too complicated. We need to pressure our Councillors not to let this scheme be approved without a trial. Please remind them that if they want their party to be elected next May they need to show they are prepared to act on local concerns.
I wanted to let you know that the George Street Association have taken an interest in our survey. I have visited most of the 100 or so shops, bars, cafes and restaurants there and none were aware of the Council plans to run a protected track down each side of George St. The street was left out of the “consultation” carried out last Xmas although for some reason the squares at either end were included. When the Council passed the West to East Cycle link plans in principle at the Transport Committee meeting on the 30th August, though, George Street was included. That the street’s users were never given the chance to comment on the plans, which will have a huge impact on parking and congestion, is astonishing. The George Street Association started promoting the survey on social media yesterday and drew in 50 respondents in one day. I’ve been invited to present at their traders meeting on the 10th November.
We now have 330 responses and views so far indicate the Council’s cycling officers are wrong. They have told politicians that the track will get people cycling and raise the share of journeys to work being made by cycle in the corridor to 10% by 2020. But will it? Will one in ten non-cyclists start cycling into town if the Council builds this thing?
Interim results from our cycle survey to date show residents think they’d be more likely to cycle if there was better access to off-road paths, fewer cycling black spots (eg crossing points at busy junctions) and more pothole-free cycle lanes which buses can use at bus stops. Many of you of course will never take to two wheels and that is an important point to make, too. If you haven’t filled in the survey yet, please do so by visiting http://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/whybike
Somewhat predictably, Spokes members have been piling in to try and swing the survey results their way, going by the number of additional comments demanding option A. Postcode analysis indicates they are bogus responders- they will not be using the track to get into town if their home is a long way directly north or south of the track’s route. Can I reiterate that the Cllrs are interested in the results of the survey and even if you are never likely to get on two wheels it would be good if you filled it in and said as much. If enough of us do this it will minimise the impact of these bogus “non-cyclists”.
You may be interested to hear the Scotsman today reported “Task force launched after cycle routes axed” (http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/task-force-launched-after-cycle-routes-axed-1-4275533). It said Scottish Government SNP transport minister Humza Yousaf today threw down the gauntlet to Nationalist and other councillors who have scrapped existing and new segregated cycle lanes. He announced a taskforce to find out why there had been problems with such schemes, which are seen as vital to Scottish Government plans to increase cycling fourfold by 2020.
Recently two protected cycle tracks were demolished: 1. SNP members on South Ayrshire Council led a successful move to rip out a segregated cycle lane in Ayr. 2. Nationalist councillors also helped to scrap an extension of the Bears Way segregated route between Milngavie and Glasgow planned by East Dunbartonshire Council.
Mr Yousaf said he was “disappointed” by such moves and said the new working group would seek to remove hurdles hampering the development of more segregated lanes on roads. The Scottish Government sees these as crucial to help to meet their “vision” of 10 per cent of journeys being made by bike by 2020, compared to less than 2 per cent just now.
Other news you may be interested in is that we are going to deliver paper survey forms to homes all along the route from Roseburn to Haymarket- if you want to help, that would be great- please just drop me a line.
Finally, in the Evening News on Monday there was a letter “Does cycling’s Roseburn Vision need an eye test?” which is reprinted below. My reply (which I hope will be published) follows.
Thanks and best wishes
Pete Gregson
The Roseburn Vision GroupDear Editor
Dave McCraw wrote in on Monday that he thinks the Roseburn Vision needs an eye test. He rubbishes our claim that protected cycle tracks are not leading to predicted increases in cycling. I wonder if he knows that East Dunbartonshire Council has just stopped Phase 2 of the Bears Way in its tracks. One of the reasons Councillors voted it down is because they saw that in Phase 1, cyclists still use the main carriageway. Even when the Council builds a protected cycle track, cyclists don’t use it.
Edinburgh Council has been told by officers that building the track from Roseburn to Leith Walk along Melville Street and George Street will raise the share of journeys to work being made by cycle in the corridor to 10% by 2020. But will it? Will one in ten jump on their bikes if the Council builds this thing? I am a cyclist and I think not. People don’t cycle in Edinburgh because of the weather and the hills and because we have an excellent bus service. A recent Scotsman report said Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee have built numerous cycle routes - both on and off road - over the past 20 years, but the numbers using them on a daily basis remain stubbornly low.
Mr McGraw says data shows that segregated tracks lead to an immediate increase of at least 60% more cycle journeys. In the case of West Coates, we counted 6 cyclists an hour. A 60% increase on this would mean possibly 10 an hour. So, for the sake of 4 more cyclists an hour, the Council wants to hold up thousands of travellers in cars and buses, remove parking and loading for shops and residents alike and create even more delays on the A8, one of the most congested and polluted streets outside London.
Cycling officers at the Stakeholders meetings are saying that Cllr Ross's proposal to cone off route A at Roseburn in a trial will never happen. They say it will be too complicated. We need to pressure our Councillors not to let this scheme be approved without a trial. Please remind them that if they want their party to be elected next May they need to show they are prepared to act on local concerns.
I wanted to let you know that the George Street Association have taken an interest in our survey. I have visited most of the 100 or so shops, bars, cafes and restaurants there and none were aware of the Council plans to run a protected track down each side of George St. The street was left out of the “consultation” carried out last Xmas although for some reason the squares at either end were included. When the Council passed the West to East Cycle link plans in principle at the Transport Committee meeting on the 30th August, though, George Street was included. That the street’s users were never given the chance to comment on the plans, which will have a huge impact on parking and congestion, is astonishing. The George Street Association started promoting the survey on social media yesterday and drew in 50 respondents in one day. I’ve been invited to present at their traders meeting on the 10th November.
We now have 330 responses and views so far indicate the Council’s cycling officers are wrong. They have told politicians that the track will get people cycling and raise the share of journeys to work being made by cycle in the corridor to 10% by 2020. But will it? Will one in ten non-cyclists start cycling into town if the Council builds this thing?
Interim results from our cycle survey to date show residents think they’d be more likely to cycle if there was better access to off-road paths, fewer cycling black spots (eg crossing points at busy junctions) and more pothole-free cycle lanes which buses can use at bus stops. Many of you of course will never take to two wheels and that is an important point to make, too. If you haven’t filled in the survey yet, please do so by visiting
Somewhat predictably, Spokes members have been piling in to try and swing the survey results their way, going by the number of additional comments demanding option A. Postcode analysis indicates they are bogus responders- they will not be using the track to get into town if their home is a long way directly north or south of the track’s route. Can I reiterate that the Cllrs are interested in the results of the survey and even if you are never likely to get on two wheels it would be good if you filled it in and said as much. If enough of us do this it will minimise the impact of these bogus “non-cyclists”.
You may be interested to hear the Scotsman today reported “Task force launched after cycle routes axed” (http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/task-force-launched-after-cycle-routes-axed-1-4275533). It said Scottish Government SNP transport minister Humza Yousaf today threw down the gauntlet to Nationalist and other councillors who have scrapped existing and new segregated cycle lanes. He announced a taskforce to find out why there had been problems with such schemes, which are seen as vital to Scottish Government plans to increase cycling fourfold by 2020.
Recently two protected cycle tracks were demolished: 1. SNP members on South Ayrshire Council led a successful move to rip out a segregated cycle lane in Ayr. 2. Nationalist councillors also helped to scrap an extension of the Bears Way segregated route between Milngavie and Glasgow planned by East Dunbartonshire Council.
Mr Yousaf said he was “disappointed” by such moves and said the new working group would seek to remove hurdles hampering the development of more segregated lanes on roads. The Scottish Government sees these as crucial to help to meet their “vision” of 10 per cent of journeys being made by bike by 2020, compared to less than 2 per cent just now.
Other news you may be interested in is that we are going to deliver paper survey forms to homes all along the route from Roseburn to Haymarket- if you want to help, that would be great- please just drop me a line.
Finally, in the Evening News on Monday there was a letter “Does cycling’s Roseburn Vision need an eye test?” which is reprinted below. My reply (which I hope will be published) follows.
Thanks and best wishes
Pete Gregson
The Roseburn Vision GroupDear Editor
Dave McCraw wrote in on Monday that he thinks the Roseburn Vision needs an eye test. He rubbishes our claim that protected cycle tracks are not leading to predicted increases in cycling. I wonder if he knows that East Dunbartonshire Council has just stopped Phase 2 of the Bears Way in its tracks. One of the reasons Councillors voted it down is because they saw that in Phase 1, cyclists still use the main carriageway. Even when the Council builds a protected cycle track, cyclists don’t use it.
Edinburgh Council has been told by officers that building the track from Roseburn to Leith Walk along Melville Street and George Street will raise the share of journeys to work being made by cycle in the corridor to 10% by 2020. But will it? Will one in ten jump on their bikes if the Council builds this thing? I am a cyclist and I think not. People don’t cycle in Edinburgh because of the weather and the hills and because we have an excellent bus service. A recent Scotsman report said Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Dundee have built numerous cycle routes - both on and off road - over the past 20 years, but the numbers using them on a daily basis remain stubbornly low.
Mr McGraw says data shows that segregated tracks lead to an immediate increase of at least 60% more cycle journeys. In the case of West Coates, we counted 6 cyclists an hour. A 60% increase on this would mean possibly 10 an hour. So, for the sake of 4 more cyclists an hour, the Council wants to hold up thousands of travellers in cars and buses, remove parking and loading for shops and residents alike and create even more delays on the A8, one of the most congested and polluted streets outside London.
Mr McCraw lives in Currie so won’t be losing his local shops, sitting in traffic jams and and breathing more polluted air as a result of this scheme. I would argue that it is myopic vision such as his and the Council’s cycling officers that will put Council resources into the wrong places. Interim results from the 270 who have completed our cycle survey to date show residents think they’d be more likely to cycle if there was better access to off-road paths, fewer cycling black spots (eg crossing points at busy junctions) and more pothole-free cycle lanes which buses can use at bus stops.
The Roseburn Vision is 20/20 on this one. The more Evening News readers fill in the survey, the more chance we have of convincing the Council to think again.
Posted 7 years ago # -
So he rubbished a neutral survey of 1,000 respondents but is drawing conclusions from 270 responses to a clearly biased one.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Mr McCraw lives in Currie so won’t be losing his local shops, sitting in traffic jams and and breathing more polluted air as a result of this scheme
The Roseburn Vision is 20/20 on this one. The more Evening News readers fill in the survey.My snipping and my bold
I take it both EEN readers live in Roseburn.
Posted 7 years ago # -
George St was specifically excluded from the EW plans as it is being covered by the wider redevelopment programme there. The Traders Assoc were included from day one in the experiment and have been fully consulted, as shown in the huge report that went to the TEC.
What's his argument going to be about George St? That it's not wide enough?
Brandolini's Law in action here.
Posted 7 years ago # -
Time to stop giving this clown any more oxygen.
Posted 7 years ago # -
"Time to stop giving this clown any more oxygen."
More helium?
Posted 7 years ago # -
"... residents think they’d be more likely to cycle if there was better access to off-road paths, fewer cycling black spots (eg crossing points at busy junctions) and more pothole-free cycle lanes which buses can use at bus stops."
Do people really grasp what this means? I'm not sure I do:
"better access to off-road paths"
What is "better access" if not protected space on the roads leading to those paths? Or does he mean more parking at mountain bike centres?
"fewer cycling black spots (eg crossing points at busy junctions)"
Does he mean cycle routes which don't go anywhere near busy junctions? This will do nothing to reduce cycling black spots as people still need to get to places. If anything, this is an argument for segregation at busy junctions.
"pothole-free cycle lanes which buses can use at bus stops"
More likely to cycle if forced to mingle with buses, really? If this were true, we'd have reached the 2020 vision already. Are we sure people with no intention to cycle aren't filling this in with any option other than the one they're opposed to?
Posted 7 years ago # -
From his previous letter to the EEN in February:
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15760&page=19#post-209542
She wants to encourage people who are less confident when cycling. Her off-road cycle lane on Wester Coates will require such nervous types to negotiate LRT buses 12, 26 and 31, the Glasgow Megabus, and the First Group 38 - as these 12 ton behemoths weave in and out of their path in order to deposit passengers at every bus-stop into town. As a cyclist myself, I’d be advising my kids to live longer by taking the NCR1 by Balbirnie
So bus stops in cycle lanes are bad, except when bus stops in cycle lanes are good.
Posted 7 years ago # -
I also wonder about the wisdom of publishing everything PG Tips circulates on here: it's just giving him more publicity, he's probably following this thread too.
If you're reading, PG, a pox on your house! We are going to fight for a better cycling environment in this city regardless of your dissembling and misrepresentation.
Posted 7 years ago # -
@crowriver
Yes, that is a danger but realistically how many read this forum? A few hundred?
The problem is that he just needs to get a dozen traders angry and then the local councillors have to take notice, so we need to be aware of what he's saying.
Posted 7 years ago #
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