@chdot:
Guess that commenter has never heard of VikingBiking!
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL
(5559 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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Thanks for the influx of comments on my doc this morning. I've incorporated a number of them and will happily incorporate more when I have time.
I think there's been enough scruitny that I've produced a first "official" copy that people are welcome to use in whatever way they see fit: http://www.chrispaton.co.uk/documents/TheimportanceoftheproposedRoseburntoHaymarketcycleway.pdf. I'll republish at the same URL as and when I make any updates.
In the first instance I will send this to my councillors and the author of the EEN article, but others are welcome to do the same (especially for councillors).
One note: please do not share the link to the Google Document outwith this forum. It has all the previous comments and revisions so I think it's best that we only distribute the cleaned up PDF.
Thanks for everyone's help -- hopefully we can start to make our case and win some hearts and minds :-)
Posted 8 years ago # -
Petitions latest -
Anti: 129
Pro: 331Posted 8 years ago # -
@chrispaton and all the other forumites who have contributed so much and gone to consultations etc, I truly, truly thank you for your efforts.
But I am concerned that chris's document gives the impression that 'we' cyclists are focussed entirely on our own interests, and I know that isn't the case.
In a personal sense I'm not bothered if this scheme goes ahead because I'm happyish enough to cycle on the roads, but what I am bothered about is the future, the air we breathe, the congestion, the increasing obesity and health costs, the accidents caused by motorised traffic, and even the fact that local shopping areas like Roseburn are being threatened by the dominance of cars that don't stop and only create a hellish noisy canyon that no-one wants to visit and shop in (despite the owners' misconceptions).
I feel, that if we want to go public on this, we should emphasise that we want this for everyone else, not just us. Roseburn could be an ideal destination; it's on the WoL, Roseburn path, close to Murrayfield, and there is no other shopping parade closer than Haymarket. It could be a magnet for people if it was just more pleasant to go to. If we're putting something out for the media, can we please say how the whole area could be improved to the benefit of all, and the cycle lane is only a small but necessary part in achieving that.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Ah, but according to Mr. Gregson, the cycle track will make Roseburn even more hellishly polluted, by insulting the great god Traffic Flow and causing more congestion!
Sigh.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Roseburn is very attractively situated and would have a nice village feel if it wasn't for the A8 thundering through. I only knew it as a "through" place until I moved there.
I stopped off there this evening and in about 4 minutes saw 10 cyclists. So much for G-n's stats.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Also, there's a bit of airbnb there attracted by the good transport links from the airport & in the summer there are a lot of visitors.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Yes, and with the suggestions on how to redevelop the park it could be a lovely spot for even more people to visit.
Posted 8 years ago # -
When I was talking to one of the local residents at the consultation, she was talking about how it would be difficult to carry objects while cycling, like laptops. You might guess what I showed her in my pannier. We had a wee chuckle!
Posted 8 years ago # -
I see our esteemed transport minister was doing the politician thing of wearing a hard hat and high-viz on the construction site of Edinburgh Gateway station today.
Pity he didn't go along to Roseburn to ask his SNP colleague why he was opposing the bike lane. Maybe Frank Ross didn't get the memo about CultureChange?
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Maybe Frank Ross didn't get the memo about CultureChange?"
Not sure the Minister understands the memo either.
- except that it's something 'other people' need to do.
Posted 8 years ago # -
No parked/ waiting vehicles on either side at 17:50 tonight.
Perhaps not such a good idea for 'us' to assert so confidently that there are 'always' cars parked.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Were any businesses open (apart from the pubs)?
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Not sure the Minister understands the memo either.
- except that it's something 'other people' need to do."
Of course, and once the Scottish people change, he'll be persuaded to invest taxpayers' money into that change. And not before (Hell freezes over, etc.)
Posted 8 years ago # -
I videod the offending rubbish current route on the way beck from town today if anyone wants to do anything clever with it:
Posted 8 years ago # -
Oops. Should have filmed landscape...
Posted 8 years ago # -
The new big bike skews the perspective ;-)
Posted 8 years ago # -
It does :-)
I also printed off a load of copies of this and I'm to go round and drop them off, with face to face explanation, with the businesses in Roseburn.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"I also printed off a load of copies of this and I'm to go round and drop them off, with face to face explanation, with the businesses in Roseburn."
Very commendable.
Are you going to check for empty shops for a Roseburn branch??
Posted 8 years ago # -
Think this needs updating -
Posted 8 years ago # -
I ventured along to the Murrayfield Community Council meeting tonight. It wasn't the warmest welcome...but I survived which might have had something to do with the local police officer being present.
I had chance to speak and tried to focus on what do we want Roseburn to be - a community beholden to getting large volumes of polluting cars through it or a place we want to be & shop etc.
I mentioned pollution, obesity congestion and the #carsick programme etc
What surprised me was how many falsehoods were being put forward by the petitioner going unchecked. I wanted to come across as a positive voice so held back my specifics initially (like nobody will cycle on it because having to deal with the big buses!) and didn't get a chance to come back in as we were already over time.
I write more when I have got it clear in my head - I would say it is clear that those opposed it are getting organised and seem hell bent on stopping it going down Roseburn Terrace.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I also attended the Murrayfield Community Council tonight. Mucho thanks to HankChief for talking eloquently.
The "alternative route" the G-n bangs on about wasn't really taken up. Other routes were turning down Roseburn Place then looping back to Roseburn Street and somehow going behind Tesco's (not sure how - there is a narrow passage there) or using the horrendous junction of Roseburn Terrace/Roseburn Street.
I don't think people were really interested in alternatives for cycling, simply for stopping this scheme from going ahead.
One novel reason that Cllr Balfour gave for being against the scheme was that the reduction of lanes would make drivers frustrated, therefore causing more accidents! And they say cyclists are dangerously impatient.
Safe Streets guy wanted to prioritise widening pavements and making bus stops easy of access over cycling. I had some sympathy with that view.
G-s-n's stats came from an elderly chap who lives in Kew Terrace and had made a count - radically different from any view I've had cycling along the A8. There are always cyclists there.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Thanks both for going along. After Monday night I didn't think I'd be able to hold my tongue so thought my presence may not be helpful...
I have enough faith in the council that they won't take the anecdotal "cycle count" as evidence.
I would also hope that the council will view sceptically any opposition based on misunderstandings/outright lies. The response to the 20mph consultation was quite robust in saying things like "this objection is based on a misunderstanding of the scheme".
However that doesn't help "popular opinion" being shaped by these lies.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I suspect it's more a case of "telling people what they want to hear". Mr Gregson is playing on popular misconceptions around the role of different transport modes in order to make his point. If that involves some "untruths", so be it if the campaign succeeds. Clearly his audience and supporters have found the excuses they needed to vocally oppose the scheme, even if their opposition is more likely based on gut instinct: a feeling of being threatened by a project for "cyclists" who are not like them.
In the face of such deep-seated prejudice there's little point in trying to persuade those who are vehemently opposed to the scheme. They're convinced they're right, they have "facts" supplied by helpful campaigners to support their views, and now they want the council to listen to them, regardless of whether their fears have any substance or not.
Those who support the scheme need to make a case to the council and politicians that sets out the positives of the scheme and why it should go ahead. If supporters do that in sufficient numbers, this can still be won.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Fairly sure Lesley hinds will push this through if the timescale permits so work has to start soonish (as holyrood or local elections will mean a different transport convener)
Posted 8 years ago # -
Local elections are May next year; Holyrood in four months' time. So there's time for the council to approve this route, draft TROs, consult on them; maybe even start work on it, before the composition of the council changes - unless Lesley is elected to Holyrood. We still don't know who Labour's candidates are on the regional lists so let's wait and see on that one. As to 2017: will the SNP bandwagon still be rolling or will the wheels have come off by then? The future of active travel spending in Edinburgh might rest on the answer to that question.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Were any businesses open (apart from the pubs)?"
To be honest I didn't particularly notice. I was busy trying to spot the Roseburn Café, which I must have somehow passed without noticing.
3D cakes was open (what's a 2D cake?). Takeaways (3?) and the Scotmid also open.
Quite a few places To Let which does suggest that something needs to change.
The bank has closed (possibly been that way for years; I tend to base my knowledge of Roseburn businesses on the time that I live there which was 10 years ago). Does that mean the ATM has gone as that used to be a popular stopping point.
Tesco obviously open and shoppers there seem to be capable of managing not to park directly outside, although you get some pretty ropey car-abandoning on Russell Road (e.g. directly adjacent to the pedestrian refuge).
Posted 8 years ago # -
The bank closed a couple of months ago and the ATM has gone.
(Incidentally, I'm writing this as I wait for the bus. St John's Road is nose to tail both directions from the Corstorphine shops to beyond the zoo at least. Yet people think the loss of 300 yards of car parking is going to cause more congestion. And "frustrated" drivers have given up obeying the law and are just driving in the bus lane. I despair. I honestly despair. )
EDIT: finally made it to Roseburn. There was a van parked up outside the Roseburn Cafe with his hazards flashing. Popping in to support a local business possibly, but not helping alleviate the massive queue of traffic.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"I despair. I honestly despair."
Yes, but.
"Incidentally, I'm writing this as I wait for the bus."
You couldn't have done that 10 years ago.
Things do change - in ways that can't always be expected/predicted.
There can't be many people, just two years ago, who were predicting/expecting the oil price collapses - and I don't think there can be many people (especially in business or political life) confident about what will be happening over the next couple of years, and therefore clear about what decisions to make.
There are 'threats' to this scheme, but perhaps neither local objections nor political nerve are that important.
Will the money appear in the right budgets when necessary?
One thing that was argued for strongly during the whole debate over Leith Walk was 'try it' - using planters and other temporary items. This didn't happen - though at the time there was a lot of 'we can't do that' from CEC about many of the measure that were eventually agreed.
CEC then went very wild about temporary things on George Street! One thing it's to be hoped that CEC learned is how to draft TROs - especially the experimental ones - so that it's not necessary to 'put things back the way they were, before we do anything else'!
Posted 8 years ago # -
Wise words. Good to get some perspective. :-)
Posted 8 years ago #
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