CityCyclingEdinburgh was launched on the 27th of October 2009 as "an experiment".
IT’S TRUE!
CCE is 15years old!
Well done to ALL posters
It soon became useful and entertaining. There are regular posters, people who add useful info occasionally and plenty more who drop by to watch. That's fine. If you want to add news/comments it's easy to register and become a member.
RULES No personal insults. No swearing.
An older inhabitant told me there used to be a sweet factory in Roseburn Street.
There are two big hooses - the Mill House next to the primary school, which is a Victorian villa and a huge crow stepped place dating back from the 16th century behind it. That's in a big garden with wonderful old trees.
Anyone know why Murrayfield Station wasn't called Roseburn Station
The junction for the station was known as Coltbridge, as was the viaduct beyond carrying it over the Water of Leith.
The Coltbridge Toll sat on what is now Roseburn Terrace, the toll house was approximately where the Murrayfield Bar now is.
The railway line opened ~1864 for goods only, there was a stone depot at Roseburn/Coltbridge/Murrayfield whatever you want to call it, most probably to bring in the raw materials for building the suburbs (next stop sown the line? Craigleith Quarry). The passenger station and goods yard arrived in 1879 as Murrayfield. The tenements of Roseburn date mainly from 1890s. So, the station was there before Roseburn as we know it now, and the proprietors probably attached the name of the prosperous neighbouring suburb for purely business reasons to try and attract wealthy customers to use the railway (or build their villas near it). This sort of thing wasn't unheard of, it was the tram that brought the name of Marchmont to the suburb of Warrender Park, for instance.
If you've ever wondered what the odd retaining wall behind the single-storey units (Cafe Vigo, Johnston Smilie) at the end of Roseburn Terrace opposite the Roseburn Bar is for - on a cursory glance it looks rather like somebody once intended the railway to head off in the direction of the stadium - there was originally a yard at street level with a goods elevator up to the level of the train station, probably to save the horses from having to haul heavy loads up and down the access ramp. It didn't last too long and was built over at some point in the 1920s or 1930s.
An older inhabitant told me there used to be a sweet factory in Roseburn Street.
It's there on the 1944 town plan, and was the home of Ross's Edinburgh Rock. They moved to Loanhead in the 1970s and more recently I think the brand was bought up and moved to Livingston when Mr Ross Jnr retired.
I just sent an email around the cyclists at work, encouraging people to fill the survey:
A couple of the responses I got were:
- I will refuse to use the slow and inconvenient cycle path, and other road users will get annoyed with me for not using it, and not give me any space.
- Copenhagen junctions are dangerous.
How should I best counter those assertions?
"I will refuse to use the slow and inconvenient cycle path, and other road users will get annoyed with me for not using it, and not give me any space."
Because it's not all about him (I'm assuming it's a him); it's about making things safer to encourage more cyclists; more cyclists leads to things getting safer elsewhere so benefitting him when he's not near the path?
-"Copenhagen junctions are dangerous"
Presumably he's worried about getting t-boned? Don't know how to counter this one other than saying existing junctions are dangerous. And they use them in Copenhagen, who know a thing or two about cycling....
"- I will refuse to use the slow and inconvenient cycle path, and other road users will get annoyed with me for not using it, and not give me any space."
Maybe one day they'll be grateful for it - perhaps burdened with heavy shopping, or with their power output reduced by illness, or accompanied by someone inconvenient and slow, or if motor vehicles are bunging up the general traffic lanes, or whatever.
"- Copenhagen junctions are dangerous."
See also "dogs can't look up". Evidence?
I will refuse to use the slow and inconvenient cycle path, and other road users will get annoyed with me for not using it, and not give me any space.
I too like to cycle everywhere at top speed. I still do when it's possible and appropriate. But when you don't have to compete with drivers you relax almost immediately into a calm groove. The baby scheme at St Leonards is like that. What some people seem to forget is that you can actually ride a fast bike slowly.
My beef with Edinfrastructure™ is that hitherto it is full of signalised crossings and fiddly corners and access points, which simply frustrates instead of providing the user with an efficient constant-speed journey (like the road does when it's not full of cars). But that's into the realm of bikes-as-transport, which is anathema to too many UK cities even in 2016.
"I will refuse to use the slow and inconvenient cycle path, and other road users will get annoyed with me for not using it"
I think your vehicular cyclist colleague is referring more to the section between Haymarket and George St. The section from Roseburn to Haymarket is actually very direct and about as well designed as you can get these days. He should still support strongly because getting this section completed (and the section at the East end of Princes Street) will demonstrate what can be done, and make it more likely that better infrastructure will be built in future.
I too, probably won't use the back route to George St but it doesn't mean I won't lobby for the project as a whole.
Copenhagen junctions are dangerous
there's a danger inherent in any design of junction. With the Copenhagen junction you still of course as a rider have to look around before crossing that it's safe. They are not designed to allow you to cycle blindly out without checking it is safe to proceed. The point in this sort of junction is that the motorist is forced by design to slow (raised table to cross, harder approach angle) and also does not have automatic mental priority of being on a continuous roadway. by sharpening the angles of crossing to close to 90 degrees, it's easier to see what's about to potentially cut across you; existing junctions with smoothed corners you have to look further back to account for both the angle and also that vehicles are approaching and taking the corner faster.
Edinburgh's road engineers know that a sharp 90 degree turn slows anyone to a dead crawl, which is why they are so dang obsessed with putting them anywhere they think there might be pedestrian:cyclist conflict.
The whole idea of this consultation is to get a fast and direct cycle route built. Hopefully, the first of many....
@kaputnik - Thanks - that's very interesting about Roseburn's history.
I'd appeal to the god of property prices by pushing the line of turning Roseburn into a mini Bruntsfield.
Seems to me that we are starting to come up with responses to most of the points raised:
Next step is to get the antis to read them. Best of luck. [for the avoidance of doubt, that isn't sarcastic]
I too like to cycle everywhere at top speed. I still do when it's possible and appropriate. But when you don't have to compete with drivers you relax almost immediately into a calm groove.
Spot on. It's amazing how relaxing and enjoyable cycling at cruising speed without constant imminent motorvehicular threat is. This is real Quality-of-Life and WellBeing stuff.
@kaputnk my interpretation of the plans is that the 'Copenhagen' junctions will have clear continuity for the cycle track (same texture and colour of surface and no give way indications). If this is true it's about as good as it gets, and will indicate clear priority for cyclists. If this is compromised then it's success will be jeopardised.
Of course, they will not completely remove the danger and all cyclists should be wary of motor vehicles not giving way, but they (cyclists) should assert their priority at the junctions. Drivers need to learn that in this configuration, the cycle track is really to be considered an integral part of the main road, and they should treat bikes on the track in exactly the same way that they would treat other cars on the main road i.e. give way to them.
From the MCC website:
"Already more than 1,000 people have signed the petition in the 4 weeks it’s been running and many more are expected before the end of January when the consultation closes. It has attracted support from three councillors and an MSP plus Lady Jill Kirkwood, the local aristocrat. [Cllrs Angela Murray (Con), Frank Ross (SNP), Jeremy Balfour (Con), Cameron Buchanan MSP (Con)]"
Well, if a local aristocrat is involved then that changes everything....
If they can't get these people to sign their online petition are they able to get them to respond formally to the consultation?
Its rather unclear what they mean by a "Copenhagen style" junction.
There's different versions with the same label:
http://i.imgur.com/G8r3xDE.png
http://i.imgur.com/6nmDluR.png
http://i.imgur.com/v3li6Hq.png
http://i.imgur.com/cgyYb7Q.png
You see this all over in the Netherlands.
Maybe this is a Copenhagen Style Junction?
https://goo.gl/maps/rKmb8DvDAG92
"Already more than 1,000 people have signed the petition"
The local Conservative Association in Roseburn must be unusually active. ;-)
On the plans only a few of the "Copenhagen Style Junction" text boxes explicitly state that cyclists have priority, the others do not.
I find this worrying.
@i if you take your first 4 examples, which are from this scheme under discussion, they show clear no ifs no buts priority for bikes over cars both exiting and entering the junctions. There are no give way indications on the cycle track. If it were built like that, its good. Any 'give ways' or 'cyclists slow' markings on the cycle track will compromise the plan and not be 'Copenhagen' in my book.
Lady Jill Kirkwood
She's the wife of Ian, Lord Kirkwood, a Law Lord. It's only hereditary peers that are members of the aristocracy, she is not therefore a local member of the aristocracy.
Who is the MSP that has signed? I think it was Cameron Buchanan (who was only sworn in in 2013 as "next on the list" after the untimely death of David McCletchie.)
Have you got a copy of Debrett's on your desk? :-)
No, but my copy of Wikipedia, Companies House and Google are, and they're fairly up to date ;)
Who is the MSP that has signed? I think it was Cameron Buchanan (who was only sworn in in 2013 as "next on the list" after the untimely death of David McCletchie.)
It was Cameron Buchanan.
@edd1e_h: Depends on the colleague, but I'd probably try something like:
The 'Copenhagen junctions are dangerous' canard may stem from the study that seemed to find an increase in crashes when Copenhagen put in cycle tracks. There's a fairly thorough look at it here http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/cycle-paths-are-dangerous-where-they-cross-junctions
Conservative councillor Nick Cook is tweeting that Edinburgh needs a BorisBike scheme. We do, but a safe cycling environment is needed first. Maybe one of his constituents could try to get him to join the dots with the Roseburn/Leith plans?
"
@CllrNickCook: @CyclingEdin @LAHinds support principle yes but very aware of concerns raised by Murrayfield cllrs re west side of proposals
"
I really do like how the bike path has priority at the side junctions.
Its also a good feature to set a bi-directional bike path away from the road at the junction. Someone driving can negotiate the bike path and the road separately.
http://i.imgur.com/CBz1Jw6.jpg
If there's no room between the bike path road, the bike path gets blocked. Like this.
http://i.imgur.com/WgeY8m4.jpg
A couple of Dutch examples.
https://goo.gl/maps/UsU87hccJNk
https://goo.gl/maps/2MVqqUGmEXH2
Normally there's a big enough verge in between that a deviation is not needed in the first place. Or the side road is so quiet that the extra junction space is not needed.
Where is your second photo from, i? That 2-way cycle lane looks utterly terrifying heading into traffic.
@Marun @i Yeah. Where is that? Truly awful.
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