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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. kaputnik
    Moderator

    @i good links, really clears up what they are meaning by "Copenhagen junction". Perhaps the designers were borrowing the word to attach some Danske-cool to the plans and that isn't helping because it's not exactly clear what they mean, and the blue rinse brigade are getting a bit upset that "This is Roseburn, not Copenhagen". Re-designating the junction design as something like "cycle priority junctions" or "low-conflict safety junctions" might help things.

    I might make a little explanatory diagram of these junctions, I think that might help.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. I were right about that saddle
    Member

    "Conservative councillor Nick Cook is tweeting that Edinburgh needs a BorisBike scheme."

    I am such, and once spent three hours in his mum and dad's garage. Perhaps I could take him for a tour starting with a right turn from Lady Road into Craigmillar Park? That should be enough.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. cb
    Member

    The terrifying photo is from the new Bearsden route in Glasgow. A short section of non-seg section to clear a junction.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. kaputnik
    Moderator

    "Copenhagen Stylie" by andy a, on Flickr

    Thoughts - click to big it? Please feel free to feedback any changes or features / benefits of this style of junction that I've missed.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. Rosie
    Member

    At the Murrayfield Community Council meeting I was sitting next to an SNP MSP candidate. If she was gauging the feeling of the meeting, I can imagine what she would back - though I didn't ask her what she thought.

    Since the SNP won the Westminster elections by a landslide, and will ditto the Holyrood ones, we can assume they may grab the local elections as well. As SNP talks active travel, but puts its money behind the motorists it could scupper any plans that have been made for decent cycling provision.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. chdot
    Admin

    "starting with a right turn from Lady Road into Craigmillar Park?"

    I don't particularly like Lady Road - or most of the road layout around Cameron Toll, but can't remember any real problems with changing lane or filtering (lights usually red at some point on the way up the hill).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. chdot
    Admin

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. Stickman
    Member

    "Save our shops"

    Yes.

    But also "Save our city".

    By making the streets fit for people.

    Also an incredibly emotive and misleading sign, which passers-by may interpret as saying that the plans will actually *close* the shops. Want to "Save our Shops"? Then use them.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. ih
    Member

    "Save Our Shops" LOL

    The sine qua non of retailing is footfall. So the shortsighted shopkeepers on Roseburn Terrace would rather have a smelly, polluted, noisy, through-route that is so intimidating to pedestrians that some have said that they decide beforehand which side of the road to visit because it is difficult and inconvenient to cross, than a quieter more welcoming destination where shoppers can browse in comfort.

    If the shopkeepers encourage this improvement in their environment and enhance their offer, they will find their business prospects getting better.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. crowriver
    Member

    That sign should read "Save My Personal On Street Parking Space" because that's really what this is all about. Just the same as Leith Walk.

    Oh and it's also about "We're not cyclists and we don't like them, they're sweaty weirdos in hi-viz".

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Arellcat
    Moderator

    Want to "Save our Shops"? Then use them.

    As I pointed out in my response to The Consultation, Roseburn could be and should be so much more pleasant to visit.

    But since everyone in the locale seems to be so completely anti-bike lanes and anti-people-friendly, I guess I'll just ride my bike to other shops that do want my business.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. i
    Member

    The guy who runs the key shop cycles.
    He was helpful about getting my keys cut though!

    As for that junction. Bears Way near Milngavie, https://goo.gl/maps/4swsxnB6Poy
    It really needs fixing, maybe like this
    http://i.imgur.com/Cwc11Ta.png
    Bears Way is quite good otherwise and would get better the longer it is.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Klaxon
    Member

    Visited a local tile retailer this morning, my first time over in that direction for a while. Pleasantly surprised to be able to make use of the 20 or so racks outside of the school.

    The main road is rather wider than I remembered and, from Haymarket Terr to Roseburn, was absolutely lined by parked cars wherever the (lack of) restrictions allowed. Particularly interesting to me were the number of cars parked in the huge loading bays at Haymarket Terr - and these are unconditionally loading only unless you have a blue badge.

    The traffic lights at Tesco are conspicuously absent of any pedestrian phases to cross the main road. Even Bruntsfield Place, with it's somewhat regular island refuges, this is not. I feel like comparisons could easily be drawn otherwise between the two areas - nice tenements with a ground floor of healthy independent retail. The latter however had the outer lanes made discontinuous a long time ago by pavement widening, blisters and bus stops, difference to traffic 'flow' nil but makes for a much nicer street.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Stickman
    Member

    Questions for the Roseburn Cafe* customer jumping in and out of an illegally parked car to pick up his morning bacon roll:

    What other shops are there on Roseburn Terrace? Can you name any of them other than Tesco? Have you ever used them? Ever shopped in any of them after getting your breakfast?

    Or do you jump back in your car and speed off, unaware of what is around you?

    This is what is so head-bangingly frustrating: the shops are campaigning together but aren't actually considering how customers behave and how all of their businesses can benefit together.

    *I know we seem to be focussing on this business, but he's put himself up as the example and is in the photos so he and his customers are now shorthand for the Roseburn economy

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. i
    Member

    @kappers That looks like a very good graphic, maybe make the beige colour more like the pavement colour?

    Here's another example in Amsterdam
    https://goo.gl/maps/ykB3yDkmvPK2

    I've still not found a "Cohpenhagen Style Junction" in Cophenhagen, mind you, I've only been once!

    @Stickman, no worries, we're all flawed human beings.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Rosie
    Member

    @ Klaxon

    I do go with "potential Bruntsfield" for Roseburn - although there's not the density of tenements there are the new apartments.

    My impression is that it's an older demographic in Murrayfield. I knew an elderly woman lawyer who worked locally and described her clientele as "old ladies in big houses". Brunstfield is younger, hipper, yuppieish, Murrayfield older.

    Roseburn is a hotch-potch of houses of all sorts of eras - new Barratts, 30s villas, 40s semis as well as basic tenements and the new apartments and a few commercial buildings. I get the impression of more young families here - and the area by the Park are a good place for children, with quiet, safe streets and Roseburn Park, which is used a good deal for football, and cricket in the summer.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Stickman
    Member

    @i sorry, my previous comment wasn't directed at you but was a tag closure fail!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. i
    Member

    @kappers This is more what I was thinking, a continuous surface for people walking. http://i.imgur.com/toKNGkS.jpg

    An Dutch example here: https://goo.gl/maps/kk8R2tYdNaN2

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    "old ladies in big houses"

    I'm willing to bet they don't vote Labour or Green. Probably not even SNP.

    We will not convince people like that to support cycling infrastructure, not at this point, in this country.

    So don't waste your time. Focus on persuading the members of the Transport & Environment Committee instead.

    Even the petition is something of a distraction. Consultation is still open for responses if you haven't already...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. Stickman
    Member

    "I'm willing to bet they don't vote Labour or Green. Probably not even SNP."

    I've always thought that there is a very strong case that could be made for cycling by more progressive Conservatives, the type that Ruth Davidson is trying to attract. It's open to all, enables freedom of movement, is pro-business....

    Not all Conservatives are your old-school paternalists, and I'm sure that's true in Murrayfield as well.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Rosie
    Member

    @Stickman - certainly Boris Johnston is pro cycling.

    Cycling does have something of a green, leftie muesli image though - as witness Jeremy Corbyn.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. Stickman
    Member

    @Rosie: I'm willing to bet that that the thousands of City workers commuting in London on £1000+ Bromptons aren't all green lefty muesli eaters either. Probably worthy of another thread - don't want to derail this important one any further.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. chdot
    Admin

    Two conservative CEC councillors here -

    "

    @CllrWhyte: @CllrNickCook @EdinReporter @CyclingEdin @LAHinds I saw it in Lyon in 2005 and lodged motion on the issue. Progress from Administrations?

    "

    Talking about an Edinburgh version of BorisBikes.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "

    By Councillor Whyte to be answered by the Convener of Transport, Infrastructure and Environment Committee at a meeting of the Council on 19 August 2010

    Given the recent launch of a cycle scheme in London following the launch of similar schemes in a number of other UK towns and cities, a scheme which London has been able to implement just over two years from the start of a new Administration:

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/download/meetings/id/21208/question_by_councillor_whyte_-_cycle_scheme

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. Rosie
    Member

    @Stickman
    At that meeting at Murrayfield I wished I'd been more au fait with the London super-highways when someone was saying "cyclists won't want to cycle right by cars/lorries thundering by".

    Edinburgh tho' more small c conservative than London.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. crowriver
    Member

    Sure, there are people from all political persuasions who cycle. That's not the point.

    The conservatives in Roseburn/Murrayfield (whether big or small 'c') are against this cycle path, and see "parking" and "congestion" as the issues.

    Given the timescale on this consultation, it really is wasting your time trying to convince the anti-cycling brigade. More important to get the pro-cycling brigade to turn out in numbers and respond to the consultation.

    It's about tactics rather than a hypothetical discussion of which party's supporters might cycle to work.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. Stickman
    Member

    @crowriver: fully agree with you.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Stickman
    Member

    Presumably the bike counter information from Roseburn Park will be available to support the plans?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. i
    Member

    If the right turn lane at Roseburn terrace was removed, there would be room for loading bays on the north side.
    http://i.imgur.com/XlfCSEz.jpg

    Also I tried the north bus stop at the bridge at Roseburn Gardens and made it clearer where people would cycle and walk at the crossing instead of an ambiguous share area.

    And for a different junction design at Roseburn street.
    http://i.imgur.com/xkJfmKt.gifv
    http://i.imgur.com/hSMzOhQ.gifv (existing)
    It would reduce traffic flow through Roseburn street.

    Any thoughts?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    "If the right turn lane at Roseburn terrace was removed"

    That would be good!

    Presume a lot of the traffic goes down Russell Road - and coped when it was shut(?)

    "different junction design at Roseburn street"

    Would be useful to know all the assumptions CEC made, which ideas they rejected and what 'can't be compromised' - and why.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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