Something like this for the Strava data?
http://labs.strava.com/heatmap/#15/-3.23590/55.94342/blue/bike
(nothing to do with me apart from the fact that I knew it existed). You can zoom in and out and stuff.
CityCyclingEdinburgh Forum » Infrastructure
Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL
(5559 posts)-
Posted 8 years ago #
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"Has anyone noticed that the parking/loading bays have been kept remarkably clear?"
Suspected since this kicked off that the antis were really about maintaining their access to illegal parking, and keeping the lanes clear for a couple of weeks is their attempt to show they're playing by the rules.
Don't be fooled; there is NO daytime parking allowed Monday to Friday either side, and only short term stopping on Saturday 1.30 to 6.60 pm. Loading (and that doesn't include a quick stop for your morning roll) is permitted on the north side at any time, and between 9.30 and 4.00 pm Mon-Fri and 8.30 to 6.30 pm Sat.
The proposals specify ample loading bays. Worth mentioning in correspondence with councillors.
The current kerbside signs are on page 14 of this thread.
Posted 8 years ago # -
From the heatmap, it looks like the A8/Roseburn Tce is almost as busy with cyclists as the Roseburn path itself!
In fact Roseburn Tce appears to have far more cyclists using it than the NCN / Balbirnie Pl / Haymarket Yards route.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"Suspected since this kicked off that the antis were really about maintaining their access to illegal parking"
Of course that's what this is about: just as it was with Leith Walk.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Keep in mind that Strava data only shows the behaviour of cyclists who use Strava, who may or may not be a representative subset of all cyclists. But it is better than no data at all.
Posted 8 years ago # -
It would be useful to have more data. The Strava heatmap is very interesting and to me the A8 also looks much busier than the NCR1, but there can be serious biases, as faster cyclists are both more likely to use Strava and prefer the A8; I don't think the data is suitable for easily comparing different routes.
Strava could potentially give some minimum numbers, like "at least 1200 people cycle along Roseburn Terr. per day" which would be enough to counter the argument "only a few per day so not worth doing".
But I can't work out how to get any numbers out of Strava. The heatmap doesn't really indicate this, and in the segment search thingy I just get a list of about 100 people who went through there in 2016, surely that's only a small selection.
Posted 8 years ago # -
as faster cyclists are both more likely to use Strava and prefer the A8
That is certainly a possibility. However what it could be used to indicate is that the A8 is the "sensible" route from point of view of being direct and convenient from places people live (e.g. centre and east of city) to the big employment centre in the west around Gogar / Edinburgh Park / South Gyle. Think how many more would not take these tortuous and sometimes inconvenient diversions around the houses if they felt that the direct route was safe.
Posted 8 years ago # -
There is this:
http://metro.strava.com/
"Strava Metro’s mission is to produce state-of-the-art spatial data products and services to make cycling, running and walking in cities better. Using Strava Metro, departments of transportation and city planners, as well as advocacy groups and corporations, can make informed and effective decisions when planning, maintaining, and upgrading cycling and pedestrian corridors."
but it costs money...Posted 8 years ago # -
Needs an actual count on both routes (say 8-9 not Friday not v wet/windy).
Should be easy (and useful) to find. % of 'Strava types'.
Posted 8 years ago # -
@kaputnik: Good point. I was a bit too negative, I guess. Agree that a good argument is that the alternative routes (also WoL path) are slow & unattractive to many, and the fact that faster people still go along A8 shows a need. Though some of them will be the "I would never use a cycle path" people that somebody a few days ago mentioned.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Easy enough to do a count - I'm happy to volunteer for one, anyone for the other?
We can then work out a mutually convenient day, and can appeal to Spokes to make it "official".
Robert
Posted 8 years ago # -
Re Strava segments - also remember these are directional, so you're only counting the cyclists passing in one direction. Even so, there does seem something slightly odd about the total number of people recording that segment, given that a segment slightly further west (on Corstorphine Road) records over 1700 riders (many of whom will of course be riding it day in, day out). It could be that the original GPS trace on the W Coates segment was slightly out, so only a proportion of Strava users' traces are deemed sufficiently similar to record a match.
In short, I wouldn't rely on segment data to provide any useful or meaningful insights. If there were a way to get the number of traces passing through or close to a particular point, that would be better, but as chdot says, a count on the ground is the only reliable approach.
Having said that, my own experience of riding through there about 8.15 and 17.45 is that I will be sharing the road with about 2-3 other cyclists heading the same way in the minute or so that I am there. Let's say 5 per minute in both directions then as a conservative estimate. Assuming this is typical of the rush hour, that would suggest a figure of at least 300 per hour using the main A8 route during peak hours. Of course, with good infrastructure it should be many more than that...
Posted 8 years ago # -
It's quite interesting to review the original papers that went to the October Transport Committee:
It mentions around 1800 one-way trips per day across the entire route.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Re counts, if anyone wants to volunteer, the industrious "i" is way ahead of us and has a pretty good system set up and a number of counts done in morning, mid-day and evening. I was going to do a few more to add more data, but appalling weather today and yesterday put a hold on me helping.
@Roibeard and @chdot - I could add you in to our PM thread on this.
Posted 8 years ago # -
Also possibly useful would be to do a Strava count on Lothian Road and compare against the known Spokes count. (Or maybe against one of the bike counters).
This would give a very rough percentage-using-Strava figure.
Posted 8 years ago # -
"I was going to do a few more to add more data, but appalling weather today and yesterday put a hold on me helping".
If only there was a roadside café to shelter in....
Posted 8 years ago # -
K***N**S**** has just posted this about the "open letter":
Council states that in designing the new cycle way they have maintained parking and loading bays near businesses. But the plan clearly shows that over 75% of the parking and loading bays in Roseburn Terrace are to disappear. This, shopkeepers anticipate, will have a hugely detrimental impact on the businesses in this area.
• The demand on the small amount of loading bays within this proposal would have a colossal impact on deliveries, goods collections and, in general, customers being unable to access their services. Most businesses have been surveying how their customers travel to the area and have identified that on average 40%, (rising up to 70% for some) travel by car. Should this proposal be implemented, at least 10 businesses in Roseburn alone have intimated they would not be able to survive the anticipated reduction in sales, especially in this difficult economic climate. With some businesses trading for over 25 years, this would be a devastating loss for the traders and the community as a whole.
• Various cycling reports state that these new lanes would encourage more cyclists to shop in the area. Roseburn traders say that if you have a TV that requires repair, an oil painting that requires to be framed or you have just purchased a nice cup of hot tea, the likelihood of you cycling with these items is nil. You therefore have to accept that cyclists aren't going to significantly contribute to the local economy.
• It has to be stressed that not one of the business-people is in any way anti-cycling; in fact there are a few keen cyclists among them, but they truly believe that everyone requires their needs to be considered so that the community can thrive in harmony. They believe the alternative cycle route which would meet the needs of the local community is NCR1 ie along Roseburn Place, down Russell Road and along Balbirnie Place.
• Finally, the Business Owners we are proud to serve an area whose community spirit is strong and they firmly believe that this cycle lane proposal should not be put to the Transport committee until further consultation involving all concerned.
• The 2000 cars that travel this road barely fit into 4 lanes during the day. The plans will reduce the carriageway from 4 lanes to 2. The congestion that locals will have to put up with will soon outdo St John's Road in Corstorphine, the worst in Scotland
• The new crossings will remove the islands in the road, vital for the many elderly in the area who must take their time to cross the road- it is the A8, after all
Signed- 40 traders on the route of the Roseburn to Haymarket track (cafes, hotels, TV repair shop, sewing machine supply, pet foods, shoe repair, florists, takeaways, recruitment, dry cleaning, beauty spas, hairdressers, etc, etc- employing 200 people and supplying the needs of 7,246 residents of the area
Posted 8 years ago # -
Interesting...
So 40% of business is by car - a better question would be where do they park - I would guess a large proportion don't park on RT itself.
But what they are also saying is that 60% come by other means - so if you made RT more pleasant for pedestrians then this would increase. (A 33% increase in peds would negate a 50% reduction in drivists.)
With there being 7,246 locals served by the shops - I wonder what percentage use them in typical week - maybe 10%. Make it more appealing (easier crossing, buses further from pavements) and this will increase
Another thing that I heard today was Andrew Burns saying that each week 100 people move to Edinburgh. How do we tackle our city's ills if we just assume that these extra people will just fit into our already creaking transport system without doing anything to create sustainable capacity?
Posted 8 years ago # -
Living Streets/pedestrian advocates do not agree that two stage crossings are better than single stage for pedestrians.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I particularly like the idea that cyclists don't buy hot drinks.
Posted 8 years ago # -
SRD - the living street rep at MCC said the same thing but didn't go down well.
I was caught after the meeting by someone who told me I was wrong about single stage crossing as back in '90s they tried single stage crossing in Roseburn and nobody liked it so it was changed back. No idea if this is true or not or any wider context.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I think he's also referring to the unsignalled islands on West Coates.
Posted 8 years ago # -
This letter is depressing. All these statements can be challenged, but there is a more fundamental issue. The impression from the letter, the consultation and the community council meeting minutes is that the group basically have dug themselves into a hole and started to obsess about it (possibly before even seeing the plans) and they just can't get out of that any more unless the whole plan is stopped; it won't matter if the loading bay is made longer or other details changed. They can't go back now without losing face, including the local councillors Ross and Balfour.
In the end the question will be if the Transport Committee is brave enough to reject these local objections and decide that the benefits to the whole city are more important.
Posted 8 years ago # -
.. which reminds me to ask for language help (hope it's not too off-topic). In German we have the wonderful words "Vereinsmeierei" (for the behaviour) and "Vereinsmeier" (for a person) and I've never found a good English equivalent.
"Busybody" comes perhaps close, but a "Vereinsmeier" is a person in a voluntary society ("Verein") who is quite obsessed with the society's work and their own role in it, and who produce copious amounts of letters and AGM motions, often using minor technicalities to derail somebody else's motions or prove some really important point. They usually create endless rifts and arguments but never quite enough that they get kicked out, and they are present in all the society's activities, so they remain key figures for decades.
I always assumed that the English language has no need for such a word as we Germans are the only ones capable of "Vereinsmeierei", but after seeing this, I'm no longer so sure.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I notice the sauna doesn't get a name check on the 'open letter' - do they not "supply the needs of the residents of the area" also? :)
Posted 8 years ago # -
"
they firmly believe that this cycle lane proposal should not be put to the Transport committee until further consultation involving all concerned.
"
??
Posted 8 years ago # -
@ Morun
I don't think the "sauna's" customers park outside.
Posted 8 years ago # -
I lived in Roseburn for 6 years and only once saw someone enter the sauna. Blink and you would have missed it. He was walking purposefully, straight along the pavement then, in a flash, he was through the door.
He certainly didn't leave a car parked outside. No jokes about unloading please.Posted 8 years ago # -
@stephan - English equivalent usually makes reference to 'green ink'
Posted 8 years ago # -
@cb - I've only once met a sauna customer, and he was at the bus stop.
Posted 8 years ago #
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