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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. LaidBack
    Member

    Good work HC. Also impressed with Lesley Hinds batting off criticism on twitter. Signatures on the pro side are rising.
    We need to start somewhere and businesses face a whole range of challenges. Parking is often highlighted as it's the only one that business people seem to focus on. Business rates + slow paying (or delivering) suppliers + deflation + web + changing buying patterns + weather + VAT .... infinite number of other things to blame too.

    I think a business on street with high footfall stands a good chance.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    It seems that some of the anti-cycle lane brigade don't quite get the thinking behind a petition. Some of the recent comments on Hankchief's petition are clearly from people opposed to the scheme, but they must have signed the petition to comment. Effectively cancelling out their own opposition to the scheme.

    Clearly our powers to confound are growing...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. SRD
    Moderator

    no, i think you can comment without signing. I contemplated doing that on theirs just to correct their errors, but decided against escalating it. slightly amused to see that they had...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. @Morningsider: You don't have to sign the petition in order to comment, you just need an ipetition user account. I have left comments on the anti-petition too witout signing.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. Stickman
    Member

    There are a couple of people who have commented against it but also signed the petition in favour.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. Morningsider
    Member

    I stand corrected - but as exercises in futility go, leaving comments under an online petition you disagree with ranks pretty high.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. paulmilne
    Member

    I just read the long comment Stickman kindly posted from the chap who is kicking up such a fuss, and two accusations stand out:

    'Council cycling officers admit no Economic Impact Assessment Study has been carried out on the effect on the shops both at Roseburn - and at Haymarket - of the proposed “street improvements”.'

    and

    'Whilst Transport Convener Cllr Leslie Hinds claims the Council has carried out traffic modelling to ensure pedestrian safety and minimal congestion, cycling officers confirm that no such modelling had been done.'

    Since most of his argument is based on ideas of congestion, safety and business imipact, these two statements are crucial to his argument. They allow him to put his opinion out there as if it has equal validity.

    Does anyone know the the truth or otherwise? Have "cycling officers" claimed that there has been no traffic modelling or economic impact study? Who are these cycling officers, and have they been asked for independent confirmation? You'd have thought a responsible newspaper covering the story would do a bit of legwork, but that notion seems terribly old-fashioned these days.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    As far as I know, the council have done traffic modelling and it was sufficiently trivial.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. chdot
    Admin

    Wonder how many 'supporters' this will lose him -

    "

    Petitioner Pete Gregson (and a Spokes member) said: “If the Council has declared war on the car, the best way of reducing congestion in town is not to make it worse. They should consider the Congestion Charge again they lost 12 years ago, but this time I believe this time they’d get it through.”

    "

    http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2016/02/cycle-path-protesters-to-hand-in-petition-to-council/comment-page-1/

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. DdF
    Member

    To clarify...

    'Spokes Executive' - sorry, no, there's no such thing! Spokes has had a few emails from P Gregson mentioning spokes "and its chums" plus various other appellations, but this is the first use I've seen of 'Executive.'

    As Henry said, the pro-petition was set up quite independently of spokes, although spokes has certainly promoted it via tweets, website and emails to members.

    Although P Gregson is indeed a (very recent) spokes member, he is the only member who has opposed the council plans, whereas many members have copied us their emails of support to councillors etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. The Boy
    Member

    He's actually correct that congestion charging should be looked at again, imo. Has no real relevance to the cycle infrastructure in Roseburn though.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. DdF
    Member

    Comment made to Edinburgh reporter...

    dave du Feu says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    February 1, 2016 at 10:42 am

    On behalf of Spokes, we should point out that although Pete Gregson is indeed a Spokes member he is the only one of our 1000 or so members who has informed Spokes of his opposition to the Council’s plan, whereas large numbers have told us they support it.

    The Spokes response to the consultation is on this web page…
    http://www.spokes.org.uk/2016/01/city-centre-east-west-route

    All Spokes members were emailed asking for comments and there was extensive discussion in drawing up our response which we therefore believe represents the views of the great majority of our members.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. LivM
    Member

    So often delays come in motorway roadworks when several lanes of traffic have to merge into fewer. However, once you've get to the single and bit itself, traffic is magically moving faster! Why? Because the delay doesn't come from the single lane but, it comes from the braking and inefficient use of lanes as people approach it (like the similar congestion that comes when people slow down to rubberneck at an accident on the opposite carriageway). So the Roseburn congestion these people fear is quite likely to be trivial because what the road changes do is prevent drivers using two lanes on the approach to Roseburn (eastbound), instead keeping them in a single lane for longer. I'm not a traffic expert, so perhaps this is bunk, but it seems clear to me that current congestion is caused by some impatient types bombing up the bus lane and then having to merge in as the current northernmost lane is blocked by "loading" vehicles.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. Rosie
    Member

    I do wish Spokes was an omnipotent as suggested. Our plans for taking over the world or at least Edinburgh are a very long time coming to fruition.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. wingpig
    Member

    Maybe he joined Spokes just so that he'll get notice of things like this about which he can then inflame himself.

    There were some numbers-of-vehicles-using-parking-and-loading-spaces mentioned at the stakeholder-engagement phase.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. I'm quite disappointed by the article in the Edinburgh reporter. Often they are much better informed about local issues than the commercial media, so it's quite surprising that this article is so unbalanced.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. ih
    Member

    " They should consider the Congestion Charge again "

    First time I've agreed with anything Mr Gregson has said on this matter. I don't believe the Edinburgh people would vote for it though.

    I can't remember if Ken Livingston put the London CC to a vote. I think not and it was just put through in the early days of his mayoralty, with sufficient time to show it was beneficial. A brave call. We need more courage in Edinburgh.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. wingpig
    Member

    From my limited observations of the offending area there's very little lane-changing going on - eastbounders seem to survive the funnelling to the west and are in the eastbound lane by the time they reach the bus stop at Roseburn Cliff. The large amount of vehicles waiting to turn right up Roseburn Street (coincidentally making the Russell-Road-Roseburn-Place junction busy and non-8-to-80-friendly, whether they were going along Russell Road or towards Murrayfield) made a few impatients skip into the bus lane so that they could instead wait out the red light in the straight-ahead lane, unless they were prevented from immediately reaching the lights by vehicles stopped on the north side of the road. All vehicles in the queue seemed to clear the lights when they changed, thanks to their very long eastbound phase, the extreme emptiness of Wester Coates ahead and the generous right-turn filter. Westbound traffic seemed to have no problem moving along at some speed, making it wise to wait the several minutes for the pedestrian crossing to change despite the large gaps between vehicles. If they slowed down just a touch they'd be easily able to have an additional few minutes' wait every hour for a single-stage crossing.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. LivM
    Member

    Letter sent to my local councillers in Roseburn:
    "Dear Frank Ross, Paul Edie and Jeremy Balfour,

    I am writing to you to express my general support for the proposed
    improvements to the Roseburn Terrace etc conditions. My view at the
    moment is that the shopping area is not pleasant for visitors (heavy
    traffic, no way to shop on both sides of the road without doubling
    back, long waits to cross at the staggered pedestrian crossing).
    Improving the area by encouraging active travel, prioritising
    pedestrians and cyclists over cars and buses just passing through and
    making sure that local businesses get a chance to benefit from
    increased slow users (rather than just single shop visitors who just
    pop into one shop for a bacon roll or whatever) must be a benefit to
    the whole community.

    As a local mother I am concerned about taking my child through Roseburn
    in his pushchair because of the traffic. I would also like to be able
    to cycle safely through Roseburn but because of the lack of cycle
    provision I don't feel I can do that now. (Some people suggest the back
    route via Russell Road, up a steep switchback ramp, along some back
    streets and then across a load of tram tracks - I can [whoops, just spotted typo: CAN'T] begin to describe
    how impossible this would be with a child in a bike trailer). Even the
    proposal to skip a cycle lane on Roseburn Terrace and have people go
    through the back streets from the park doesn't help those of us who
    live north of Corstorphine Road as we can't access the beginning of it.

    I understand that local business are concerned about losing loading
    bays, and I agree that the council plans should lay out clearly how
    this loss is to be balanced, however I really feel that if we do
    nothing, then Roseburn will lose a wonderful opportunity to improve its
    amenity. Having been to a community council meeting where members
    honestly got upset at the prospect of replacing shabby bollards on the
    old bridge with some free planters, I guess that Change is a challenge
    for many people, but with the right plan and a vision for the future,
    Roseburn could be so much nicer and an asset for local people.

    Yours sincerely,
    ...
    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. chdot
    Admin

    No, no chance to vote on CC in London.

    "A brave call. We need more courage in Edinburgh."

    I generally agree with that, though the thing to remember is that the fact there had to be a vote in Edinburgh, because SG (Labour then) wanted to pass the responsibility/grief to CEC.

    Presumably the legislation still exists which means (all?) councils would have to have a referendum before introducing CC?

    Much as I wish Edinburgh had CC I wasn't impressed with the two cordon proposals - or confident that CEC could deliver...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. LivM
    Member

    @wingpig - agreed, most of the time it works fine, but there are times when things back up all along Corstorphine Road.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. SRD
    Moderator

    great letter livD. worth sending to EEN too?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. Stickman
    Member

    Here is Paul Edie's response to the consultation. It's interesting just how much he has got wrong, both in respect of the proposed cycle lanes and also the 20mph restrictions. His "elegant solution" feels like he's got his red pen out and scrawled an idea on a map without thinking about design guidance, best practice, conflicts with pedestrians etc.

    "In principle I support the concept of segregated cycleways but I have some serious concerns about the detail of the Roseburn end of the proposal.

    I pride myself as being a constructive person and as such I will put forward an alternative which I believe will alleviate many of the concerns that I and many local residents have.

    I am concerned that this consultation has been polarised. I don’t believe that this must be a take it or leave it. I also believe that we can have a compromise that suits everyone’s interests

    I fully understand the desire to run a route through the city centre and to make that as direct as possible. I also appreciate that the coexistence of Bus, bicycle, tram care an pedestrian involves a very delicate balancing act of competing interests many of whom are not the passengers, drivers, cyclists etc in question. These interests are important though and to dismiss them glibly when they can be accommodate would be a mistake.

    Consultation

    I have, like many others, felt that the consultation could have been done better. My colleagues have expressed their concerns at mail drops of leaflets going astray etc. I would say that the consultation materials were not of good quality with the legends colour etc in the leaflets I have seen being confusing and confused. It has made it difficult for even informed people to get a grasp of what is a being proposed.

    The Current proposals

    The current proposals begin to get problematic when they get to the Wester Coates area and worsen when they get beyond the Roseburn Bridge.

    The proposals have a cycle lane that is very wide and removes the bus lane to accommodate that. I have been told that this is to allow cyclists who want to overtake.

    Removing the bus lane would be a very retrograde step. This is perhaps the busiest, and is certainly one of the busiest bur routes into the city. With 25% of the capitals workforce travelling in from the west many do so by public transport.

    I supported the administrations move to limit the times for bus lanes to rush hours as a benefit to local small business and because at other times there is rarely any congestion preventing the free flow of buses.

    I cannot support removing a bus lane on this busiest of routes. The principle of the transport policy in Edinburgh has been to put the interests of the many i.e. public transport passengers, first and foremost.

    I recall David Begg saying that the amount of road space used by passengers versus cars needed to change. On this route bus passengers are the most important road users in my opinion. I have taken the opportunity to observe for myself the traffic flows here and there are not as many cyclists using this route compared to for example Gorgie Road.

    I appreciate, and support, the idea to expand those numbers by a segregated lane but I don’t believe that even if you tripled the numbers there would be the necessity of effectively a four lane cycleway. This is especially true when you appreciate the tidal flow of traffic along the A8 including bicycle traffic. There is a one way cycle lanes at present and I believe that we can have a two way two lane cycle way that would still give ample space for overtaking especially as much of the route is on a 20mph zone. I don’t believe we need a four lane cycleway especially at the expense of a bus lane on a busy route.

    I also have concerns about the lane when it hits Roseburn. Running a local businesses there is a difficult situation at the best of times. There are many empty units there and I have been concerned at some people who support the proposals as they stand are very dismissive of the needs of small traders.

    Running the lane along the North side of Roseburn Terrace would cause problems with loading and unloading. Many of these businesses rely on goods being dropped off and picked up and any changes here to the operation out with rush hour could see many shops going to the wall.

    I also have concerns about the routing of the lane along by Murrayfield Ave. That is a complex junction and I feel that this would not be safe.

    Alternative proposals

    My alternative proposal would be to run the route along the south side of Wester Coates. There is space for a narrower two lane bikeway maintaining both bus lanes. I would then like to see this taken off at the alleyway behind Tescos and joined to the National cycle route on Russell Road.

    If this were to have a raised table to direct the bikes across Russell Road and ideally signals introduced this would solve a lot of the problems with traffic in Russell Road and give priority for bikes at one stroke.

    I think this is an elegant solution. It would remove all of the concerns about the viability of small shops there, shops that several thousand local residents rely on. Roseburn is a very densely populated part of the city and as someone who does not own as car I can tell you easy access to local shops is very important to them. It would also remove at a stroke much of the aggravation which will see the current proposals locked in a war of attrition during the statutory phase of any TRO process.

    If this is for any reason not possible then again a narrower two way lane along the north could be considered again maintaining bus lanes in both directions and routed down Roseburn Street joining the route there. This would also alleviate much of the concerns raised by many residents and local businesses.

    Paul Edie

    Councillor Corstorphine and Murrayfield"

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. LivM
    Member

    I dislike the media...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. neddie
    Member

    So a 2.5m cycle lane is now a "four lane cycleway"?

    What planet does that guy live on?

    Talk about exaggeration and lies.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. wingpig
    Member

    Aha. This Paul Edie thinks that a two-way cycleway with 'room for overtaking' means 'room for overtaking going in both directions simultaneously and at the same point in the path', hence this 'four-lanes' rhubarb?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. The key in Paul Eadie's proposal is to move the path away from the main route in Roseburn Terrace to backstreets, without connection to Corstorphine Rd. This is not a "compromise".

    Some of his suggestion for West Coates are a bit of a smoke screen. Whether you run the path on the North side or South side doesn't make a difference for the width. The key is he wants to make it narrower, but he risks that many faster commuters then won't use it.

    A basic problem that he doesn't seem to get is that if the bike path is unattractive for whatever reasons, it will discourage users and/or many will continue to ride on the carriageway and actually impede traffic flow much more...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. LivM
    Member

    Reply from Jeremy Balfour:
    "Thank you for your email. I think everyone wants to see more people cycling and walking in the city and where this can be encouraged the Council should be supporting this. However, I do have some major concerns about the proposal for the new cycle route. My three major concerns are firstly, safety of people crossing the roads especially children going to the local schools. Secondly, the long term effect on the shops in Roseburn and finally, the loss of the bus lane on Roseburn Terrace.

    I do not think the cycle path should run along Roseburn Terrace and a different route needs to be found and be linked to the present cycle route. I think this will be possible and I will be working to achieve this along with others. I hope this clarifies my position but would be happy to discuss this further with you.

    If I can help with any other local issue now or in the future please do get back in touch with me. "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. LivM
    Member

    My reply to him:
    "Thank you for your swift reply.

    I would have hoped that reducing rat running in the back streets behind Roseburn Terrace, and making a single phase crossing at the West end of Roseburn and an all way stop crossing at the Tesco junction would all improve pedestrian safety. Equally, having a high quality cycle lane through Roseburn would concentrate cycle traffic there rather than having it in the back streets, again making it safer for pedestrians (who will know where to look to avoid bikes).

    The shops in Roseburn who currently depend on drivers illegally parking in the loading bays (I can't think of a time when I've walked through Roseburn off peak and not seen someone just popping into a shop with their car parked, clearly not loading legally) need to consider the environmental impact of this business model. If they cannot adapt or embrace their pedestrian business then they are a detriment to the area not an asset. Time and again it has been shown that businesses do better when cycling and walking are encouraged. I am sure that suitable arrangements for unloading goods are possible, along with a cycle lane, but it's the fear of the unknown that is the problem at the moment. As a local shopper, I find myself making the decision to only shop on one side of the road, because I can't cross the road at Tesco. This cuts the amount of money I spend in the community, and I'm sure that the same could be said for many other people.

    The bus lane on Roseburn terrace is to be maintained up to the bus stop, I understand (or thereabouts), and then buses after that must merge in to traffic, which is exactly what happens for the majority of the day anyway, when the loading bays are in use. And even at peak times it is very common to see vans / taxis etc parked "just for a moment", blocking the lane.

    I understand that the current consultation gives the council the chance to redraw the most awkward bits of the plan, but as a council employee said to me at the exhibition in the primary school last month, it's a shame that the community council and local businesses didn't engage with them earlier last year when they were asked for input. If the end plan is diluted too much then it will fail in its objectives to encourage active travel (look at the quality bike corridor mess where the bike lanes are constantly blocked with parked cars)

    Best wishes
    ..."

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. Stickman
    Member

    @LivD:

    I got the exact same standard reply from Balfour. I got him to clarify that his safety concerns are with "frustrated" drivers jumping the lights at the Roseburn Street junction. I pointed out to him that this happens every day already.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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