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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. chdot
    Admin

    "The suggestion about a meeting between the groups has merit"

    Might be better if one or two locals ask to meet Cllr Ross 'to explore concerns'.

    He is in the middle and has publicly aligned himself early on by signing that petition.

    If his concerns are really about "about local communities,the elderly,those with mobility issues, public transport etc", then that's a lot more than 'cycling' and 'traders' - so lots to agree on.

    Then find out which are 'misunderstandings' and 'differences of belief'.

    'We' can link to all the places where trade is up (any info on where it didn't work??), but have no way of proving everything will be wonderful - even less - everything will be wonderful for everyone!

    Posted 8 years ago #
  2. Morningsider
    Member

    Stephan - trying to change a person's mind through Twitter! That way madness lies.

    A real negotiation/debate takes two willing parties who are both prepared to listen, be convinced by sound argument and ready to compromise for the greater good.

    You can't "win" a debate with an unwilling opponent. I would concentrate your efforts on trying to convince people who are willing to listen - or possibly just go to the pub, it is Friday after all.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  3. chdot
    Admin

    See Stickman's recent post on previous page for details and possible solutions.

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=15760&page=42&replies=1261#post-211823

    Posted 8 years ago #
  4. ivangrozni
    Member

    Out of curiosity - has anyone done the maths on road maintenance? The section of the A8 through West Coates/Roseburn is crying out to be resurfaced. Surely the council has to do something with the road in any case - there will be cost regardless of whether or not they need to implement a cycle lane....

    By minimising the road surface area (through building a cycle lane) is the council poised to reduce future maintenance costs (less road to maintain)? In my ignorance I see a cycle lane as requiring significantly less maintenance. Any civil engineers or infrastructure experts on CCE fancy crunching the numbers?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  5. Stickman
    Member

    The east bound carriageway was resurfaced last year. The westbound never got done.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  6. Rob
    Member

    The debate shouldn't be about cyclists, it should be about traffic and congestion. The alternative solution aims to reduce congestion on a main road by routing some of the traffic through a local park.

    That the traffic will have to change vehicle isn't relevant.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  7. HankChief
    Member

    Just had a friend round who is interested in commuting to work by bike again (after a many year gap) - Corstorphine to Waterloo Place.

    Am at a total loss for a route that I would take let alone recommend to a returning cyclist.

    We need Roseburn-Leith Walk built - the demand exists...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  8. It's not about "fighting" or "winning a conversation", in my opinion.

    @Morningsider Twitter - I disagree and think Twitter is useful.

    - I wouldn't even have a chance to meet / talk to many of the people who I communicate with on Twitter. Frank Ross is one of them. At least he does hear different opinions from people he would not have met, and I hear things I wouldn't have heard.

    - It's low key low barrier conversation, takes only a few seconds. Would I send him an email or meet him? Probably not. On Twitter it's more immediate and spontaneous and sometimes people reply, sometimes not.

    - It is public. Frank Ross may or may not think about what I say, and I may or may not think about what he says, but others read it and sometimes it gets retweeted.

    Much turmoil around Twitter is when people take it too seriously. It's in written form, but it's more like a chat over coffee rather than a legal document. Sometimes somebody isn't in the mood or hits a wrong tone, happens at the institute coffee meetings too, but you go back to work and forget about it and chat again next day. That's life.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  9. Rosie
    Member

    @Erob - true

    Here's a very good article about the 6 roadblocks to good infrastructure. It's about Vancouver but highly relevant to Edinburgh.

    http://www.vancitybuzz.com/2016/02/roadblocks-complete-streets/

    Posted 8 years ago #
  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Anything that can increase the footfall, bring a bit of prosperity and jobs to the area is welcome”

    "

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/developer-aims-high-with-plans-for-hotel-at-waterfront-1-4029469

    Posted 8 years ago #
  11. @Stickman Very good text.

    Regarding the floating bus stops, perhaps explain why this is the best option? Something like:

    For a protected bike lane, the floating bus stop is the best design for bus users.

    To route a protected cycle path around a bus stop, there are fundamentally three options: (1) route the cycle path behind the bus stop ("floating bus stop"): (2) route it in front of the bus stop on the pavement, and (3) merge the cycle lane onto the carriageway before/after the bus stop. Option (3) defeats the purpose of a protected lane and also can't be done for bi-directional lanes. People waiting for the bus and getting on/off do so in front of the bus stop, so option (2) leads cyclists into the area that is busiest with bus users, while option (1), the floating stop, leads cyclists away from the busiest area.

    Bus users have to cross the cycle path no matter if it is routed behind or in front of the bus stop, but the floating bus stop can be designed so that bus users can cross the bike lane there with clear sightlines more easily.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  12. It's interesting that Living Streets and others don't really seem to get what the opposition to floating stops implies. The petition guy got it immediately, he wrote a comment somewhere gloating that the LSE submission kills the whole route off because you can't have protected bike lanes without floating bus stops.

    Basic issue is really: If you have a protected bike lane, what do you then do when you reach a bus stop? If you can't go around the back of the stop, then you have to get back onto the road, and then it's no longer a protected lane. And many cyclists will not switch between on-road and off-road sections and stay on the toad or on the pavement.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  13. Just noticed LSE have written something more about floating bus stops. They back a pilot on Leith Walk (very grudgingly, from the overall tone of it):

    http://www.livingstreetsedinburgh.org.uk/2016/02/08/living-streets-edinburgh-backs-floating-bus-stop-pilot-on-leith-walk/

    Posted 8 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    From link -

    "

    the roll-out of further floating bus stops in Edinburgh is delayed until after the evaluation of the Leith Walk pilot.

    "

    Any others planned?

    Presume the Roseburn one isn't likely to happen until well after this one(?)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  15. @chdot Well, if one knew how LSE produces these statements and how much of the recent discussions have been taken on board... They just never engaged in any communication at all, and this doesn't really inspire much confidence that they actually represent a wide range of pedestrians and not just somebody's personal view.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  16. chdot
    Admin

    Define "represent"...

    Posted 8 years ago #
  17. @chdot Good question, hard to define. I had assumed that LSE is some kind of community of pedestrians, like Spokes is for people who cycle. Around Spokes there is a general buzz with meetings, communication, interaction, collaborations etc. So one gets the feeling that Spokes' statements, while written by individuals, still integrate ideas from a large community.

    Is this similar with Living Streets?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  18. paulmilne
    Member

    Has the Equality Act been evoked here, does anyone know. If people using mobility scooters on the cycle track, or disabled people on bikes, are forced to route the long way around or rejoin traffic at bus stops, that could be construed as discriminatory and contrary to the Act. It could be useful argument for the Council and for Living Streets too.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  19. Stickman
    Member

    http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/roseburn-cycleway-will-worsen-congestion-lothian-buses-warns-1-4031555

    It's not going to happen, is it?

    And Gregson is straight into the comments with his lies.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  20. Why did the Lothian Buses operations infrastructure manager write an email to a "local resident" last week?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  21. Stickman
    Member

    And which "local resident " was it to? Need we ask?

    Is this email new anyway? Didn't the Ops Manager make this comment months ago and he was slapped down as the consultation was ongoing?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  22. wingpig
    Member

    The thing which will threaten public omnibuses' journey times is not the presence of a cycle lane nor the absence of a discontinuous bus lane but the continued use of the route by large numbers of people in single-occupancy full-width motor vehicles. Is there a category for "foolishly playing straight into the hands of an axe-grinding hyperbolist" on Lothian Buses' website's customer services complaint form?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  23. chdot
    Admin

    "

    You couldn't make it up..

    "

    KidsNotSuits (in Comments)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  24. chdot
    Admin

    Don't think this comment is made up -

    "

    The biggest source of congestion is the traffic backed up at the lights going east at the Roseburn shops. This is mostly because the two lanes are always reduced down to one by cars and delivery vans parked on the north side of the road. Replacing a blockage used by parked cars with one caused by a bike lane will have no overall effect.

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "The thing which will threaten public omnibuses' journey times is not the presence of a cycle lane nor the absence of a discontinuous bus lane but the continued use of the route by large numbers of people in single-occupancy full-width motor vehicles."

    You'd think that LB would a) realise this, b) encourage CEC/SG etc to introduce measures to reduce that problem - which would create potential customers (they won't all cycle!)

    Posted 8 years ago #
  26. Gregson's comment: "We've counted 12,000 travellers using this stretch of the A8 at peak hour. (...) The track will carry 40 cyclists at peak hour, 6 per hour the rest of the time (that is current usage)."

    So at "peak hour" there are 120 buses with 100 passengers each, i.e. 2 buses per minute?

    "So the Council will force 12,000 folk getting home (most in buses) to sit in congestion, just so as 40 lycra-clad warriors can barrel along their dedicated track, frightening the bejaysus out of any pedestrian foolish enough to get in their way (ie those getting to and from bus-stops)."

    No comment.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  27. Morningsider
    Member

    Most amusing that he ends his first comment with "You couldn't make it up" - although I suppose he is an expert on that.

    Posted 8 years ago #
  28. chdot
    Admin

    Now it's getting personal...

    "

    Interesting that Peter Gregson (KidsNotSuits is just him) is concerned about the council spending money on a project which he says will only benefit a small number of people.

    He didn't object to the Council spending £14m on flood defences at Roseburn Park, spending which will benefit less than one hundred people. Perhaps because his house will be one if those to benefit?

    Principles are interesting things, eh Peter?

    "

    Latest comment -

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/roseburn-cycleway-will-worsen-congestion-lothian-buses-warns-1-4031555

    Posted 8 years ago #
  29. kaputnik
    Moderator

    So at "peak hour" there are 120 buses with 100 passengers each, i.e. 2 buses per minute?

    A quick check of the bus stop at Roseburn shows the following services use it;

    Lothian - 12, 26, 31, 100
    Firstbus - 20, 21, 22, 38, 38A
    Coaches (Citylink, etc.) - 900, 909, M8

    From the timetables for the stop it's easy to see how many buses on each service pass per hour, and the theoretical maximum capacity can be defined from bus nerd pages on the internets (I've been generous and rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5, to account for individual operators generally specifying their own bus layouts from the manufacturer's standard)

    12 - 3 p/h x 70 pax = 210
    20 - 1 p/h x 65 pax = 65
    21 - 1 p/h x 65 pax = 65
    22 - 1 p/h x 65 pax = 65
    26 - 9 p/h x 90 pax = 810
    31 - 6 p/h x 90 pax = 540
    38 - 2 p/h x 65 pax = 130
    38A - 2 p/h x 65 pax = 130
    100 - 5 p/h x 85 pax = 425
    900 - 4 p/h x 65 pax = 260
    909 - 0.5 p/h x 65 pax = 33
    M8 - 1 p/h x 65 pax = 65

    So the total possible maximum peak time bus passengers, per hour, in a single direction, assuming every bus is 100% full (have you seen how empty some of the First Buses run?) is 2,798. I'd wager that they aren't running at 100% capacity in the out-of-town direction during rush hour, but even being generous and assuming they are, that's 5,596 passengers per hour along Roseburn Terrace.

    Does Mr Suits expect us to believe the other 6,404 people in his magic 12,000 people per hour count are in single occupant vehicles?

    Posted 8 years ago #
  30. Murun Buchstansangur
    Member

    Allegedly official average traffic counts here - #30821

    If true, traffic has decreased 26% since 2001

    Posted 8 years ago #

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