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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. HankChief
    Member

    Okay we are ready to launch.

    The website is
    http://www.roseburncycleroute.org.uk

    Please take a look and then share it widely. Politicians, friends, family etc. Emails, twitter, Facebook, Blogs are all good.

    Let's not keep it just inside the cycling bubble, though.

    There are sharing buttons on every page so you can select the specific point you want to direct someone to.

    We are genuine with our promise to update the website that if there is any evidence that we have missed, whether they be supporting advantages or disadvantages to the scheme.  

    We want this to be a useful resource for the community and presenting a balanced (but considered) set of arguments, so 

    We have a twitter account @roseburncycle which you can follow / tag in and an email mailing list if you want to be kept informed.

    Thanks all.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. crowriver
    Member

    Just don't touch PG's Surveymonkey with a bargepole. Any interaction with that will just serve to legitimise his "consultation". Not only will it be a waste of time, it will actually help the opposition to the scheme.

    Otherwise, Morningsider has it right about lobbying councillors: timing and a clear, simple message are very important.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. acsimpson
    Member

    It's a bit of rock and hard place. If no-one responds pointing out the glaringly obvious flaws in the scheme then sadly those who have been blindly led by misleading statements and down right dishonesty will be the only ones completing it. Unfortunately PG will then try legitimise this response.

    Chdot, ticking none of the above misses the fact that they are still refusing to define what they mean by the local area. Given that the council is the lowest section of government I would consider Edinburgh residents to be local.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Stephan Matthiesen
    Member

    It is an encouraging sign that the MCC linked to the website from their news section and on twitter. The minutes of the April meeting also record some of the support for the plan and sound much more balanced than earlier minutes.

    Perhaps people realise it's not as straightforward as PG says and that he doesn't speak for 90% of the residents?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. Wilmington's Cow
    Member

    It's a difficult one that survey. I'd err on not completing, for one simple reason, PG seems very adept at completely twisting results and comments, shouting loudly, and proclaiming as fact.

    I think he would definitely use the x% of respondents were cyclists, and look how many people oppose the plans, ambiguity-creating-separation mentioned above.

    I also think if there was a surge in cyclist responses, which were supporting the 'track', it would give even more fuel to his 'cyclists are trying to usurp the democratic process' rants.

    Did Sustrans really pull out of meeting him?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. Rob
    Member

    I don't see anything in this plan which would increase the number of people cycling. At best they're slight improvements for current cyclists.

    I don't have the time to pick through all the nonsense here but my highlights are:

    * The detail around Roseburn Gardens looks particularly scary.
    * Two toucans to get from Russell Road to Roseburn Place
    * Two way cycling, one way motor traffic while retaining all parking here, really?
    * On the path, off the path, on the path. None of which look wide enough for two way cycling and pedestrians.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. Big_Smoke
    Member

    This new route they've drawn up is a dogs breakfast, the same crap we've supposed to be accustomed to in a desperate bid to get people out-of-the-way.

    No evidence to support how it's going to be better even using that idiotic notion that it will reduce congestion. As if they still think people on bikes are holding them up.

    If they were films the council route would be an average but well-written for its time flick that might not win any awards but at least you wouldn't leave the cinema disappointed and may even consider a second viewing.

    The Dogs breakfast seems to follow a trend of mediocre nonsensical writing that wouldn't even pass for a Uwe Boll production were the arrogant creators immediately presume they're going to get funding for a sequel.

    I'd hope the council would throw it out with PG in a similar fashion to Uncle Phil with Jazz but I'm not holding my breath.

    There by the grace of god go their potential customers.

    Perhaps they need a vacation, preferably to a sister city in British Columbia

    https://momentummag.com/bike-walk/

    that has met it's 7% modal target 4 years early by building actual infrastructure.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. Big_Smoke
    Member

    Good work on the new site for the path guys, it looks informative and plauseable. I'll see if I can share it via Facebook.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. HankChief
    Member

    So far so good on the website, with a steady stream of interest so far, but we can always do better...

    http://www.roseburncycleroute.org.uk/

    Don't be shy in sharing it or in giving us feedback.

    I've seen it in a previously hostile part of Facebook and the one anti voice was roundly dealt with by many voices - very pleasing to see.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. ih
    Member

    @HankChief That website is really really good. It's clear, looks clean and professional, but it isn't preachy or propagandising. Just as you say, evidence based which I think is exactly the right approach. I particularly like the way objections are handled, with understanding and facts which paint the real picture rather than melodramatic nonsense coming from other quarters. This phrase is so true,
    "We don't accept the whole notion of classifying people as 'cyclists' and 'drivers'. We are all ordinary people who use a variety of means of travel appropriate to different situations." so well done and thanks to all who contributed.

    I agree with @morningsider's approach to PG's webpage, no good can come of engaging with that illogical rant, stay away.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. gembo
    Member

    @hankchief, I have shared your fab website on Facebook, so have spokes coincidentally

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. fimm
    Member

    I went the other way this evening:
    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1184035165
    I did have a stonking tailwind, but don't tell anyone...

    Via NCN1:
    Distance 1.39 km, Time 5:47, elapsed time 6:44, average speed 14.5 km/h, average moving speed 16.8 km/h

    Via West Coates:
    Distance 1.19 km, time 3:44, elapsed time 3:59, average speed 19.1 km/h, average moving speed 20.7 km/h

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Rosie
    Member

    I did print out the PDF of the visionary route but the print on the map is so tiny I can't read it. However it looks like the Balbirnie Place to Haymarket Yards route is no longer being sold as a fine route for cyclists.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. rbrtwtmn
    Member

    @HankChief - you asked for feedback.

    At this stage I've only read the front page, but I'm going to comment on the basis that lots of people will do the same. If you like then this is front page only feedback. My comments are also about exact tone rather than overall content, and I offer them with suitable humility....... :-)

    Perhaps these three things should be more obvious than they are at the moment on this page.

    1) Done well the main improvements that result from work like this are to the livability of the city. This infrastructure may be the first step in working toward a decent city environment for walking, shopping, hanging out, AND cycling. It's all too easy for stuck-in-the-mud opposition to think of this kind of change as being for 'cyclists' only. My biggest observations about Amsterdam (visited last year) weren't about the cycling as such. I could hear my youngest child talking to me.... that was the most amazing thing.

    2) Any of the decent cycling routes are already at breaking point, with those on foot being seriously disadvantaged. At times there's real anger on the canal - quite reasonably, because it's no longer a pleasant place to either walk or cycle at times. Numbers are increasing, and the existing strategy is already failing in that regard.

    3) You should mention the actual numbers of people cycling. 1 in 5 vehicles on Lothian Road at rush hour. This isn't a tiny minority - just one that isn't so obvious because it doesn't cause queues.

    Nice site!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. HankChief
    Member

    @rbrtwtmn Thanks for the feedback. All good points.

    We are working away with the suggestions to improve the site.

    Any more anyone?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. Stickman
    Member

    How about a link to the Sustrans Bike Life survey on the "Enthusiastic Edinburgh cyclists" page?

    http://www.sustrans.org.uk/bike-life/edinburgh

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Claire
    Member

    Gosh, a lot has happened since I last checked in on this thread! The website is excellent. I agree with @rbrtwtmn on framing the argument as more than just cycling.

    I attended a Walk Cycle Vote training event back in March, which featured a really useful session from a pro mini-Holland campaigner based in London. Her key take away from the session was to frame the planned improvements as more than just about cycling. This is a wide-ranging street improvement project for Roseburn, with benefits for people who are residents, commuters, shoppers, children, adults, pedestrians and cyclists :) But I figure everyone on here knows this anyway - it's about getting that point out to the frothers and misinformed.

    Fantastic work on the site. I will be at MCC meeting on 31 May to lend support. Plus, I am a regular human being rather than whatever a "lycra-clad yankee" is, so the naysayers won't be able to spot me easily ;)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. chdot
    Admin

    Just posted on other thread -

    https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/who-else-benefits-from-the-dutch-cycling-infrastructure

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. chdot
    Admin

    Also

    "Cycle-friendly cities now need to encourage walkers"

    http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=11351

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. i
    Member

    I agree that we need to emphasise that this benefits everyone in society. Excessive car use has a negative impact for everyone and replacing it with cycling is a clear solution for a more liveable place.

    It might be useful to include http://cyclingfallacies.com/en/

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    With the exception of the new Roseburn site, this is my new favourite website:

    http://cyclingfallacies.com/en/

    Invaluable for batting away the nonsense.

    Edit: i beat me to it! Should have refreshed!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. PS
    Member

    I agree that we need to emphasise that this benefits everyone in society. Excessive car use has a negative impact for everyone and replacing it with cycling is a clear solution for a more liveable place.

    Controversial, I know, but I would also say excessive bus use (or, more accurately, too many buses in places where people should have primacy) is an issue as well. Noise, pollution, bulk and generally getting intimidating presence. See Princes Street, George Street, The Bridges. The more people that are encouraged to be mobile pedestrians (cyclists) the better for everyone as you can divert those buses out to more useful, less intrusive routes and away from the city centre.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. HankChief
    Member

    http://www.roseburncycleroute.org.uk/blog

    Thanks everyone

    Over 1,000 visitors on day 1 :-)

    Still time to get the message out. Have you written to your councillors yet?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. chdot
    Admin

    "Controversial, I know, but I would also say excessive bus use"

    You assume bus companies plan bus routes and frequencies to get the maximum number of passengers...

    The tram has proved that (to some extent) you can get by with fewer stops.

    Fewer bus stops would be highly unpopular (as would significant changes to routes, or the need to change buses more often).

    Fewer stops would 'need' bigger bus stops and better pavements.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "Over 1,000 visitors on day 1 :-)"

    Well done!

    CCE certainly didn't get that many right from the start.

    How are the comments going?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. HankChief
    Member

    CCE is the most forthcoming with feedback.

    The anti-cycling part of Facebook mentioned above has woken up, but @harts & I are batting it away by linking back to evidence in the site or on the fallacies one (which is perfect in this situation).

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. biketrain
    Member

    Put a link to http://www.roseburncycleroute.org.uk/ on my work BUG earlier today. Already getting some replies and likes.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Claire
    Member

    @hankchief Well done to you and @harts. I occasionally chip in on that page to fight the good fight, but usually can't be bothered due to the nonsense spouted by people. Sense and empirical evidence don't really seem to matter to most of these folk.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. i
    Member

    @ Hankchief, regarding the floating bus stop page. A useful link. http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/05/toward-the-peaceful-coexistence-of-buses-and-bikes/394217/

    And I saw that Manchester has a fantastic example of a floating bus stop on Oxford Road (even if the rest isn't that great). I took some pictures. Ask if you want more. I should really ask the Manchester campaign if they have feedback on it.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. chdot
    Admin

    View from Manchester -

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_1SI7iBXu3BRm4weE5PSkJCLUU/edit?pref=2&pli=1

    More on buses and bikes

    http://rachelaldred.org/writing/thoughts/buses-and-bikes-a-different-perspective-on-modelling-delays/

    Posted 8 years ago #

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