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Roseburn to Leith consultation begins (and the debate continues!) CCWEL

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  1. HankChief
    Member

    @ivangrozni I know tonight there is a drop-in session (thanks daisydaisy) - are there any other significant dates regarding meetings etc?

    There is a Murrayfield Community Council meeting on Wednesday night at 7.30 Murrayfield Parish Church. It will be good to have a range of voices in support at that session.

    The last MCC meeting appears very one sided. minutes here

    And don't forget to fill on the formal consultation by 1st Feb. The online form does take a bit if wading through so don't leave it too late. The alternative is to email CyclingProjects.Consultation@edinburgh.gov.uk

    Posted 8 years ago #

  2. crowriver
    Member

    "They seem to have forgotten that there is a perfectly good alternative route for cars to use to get to Haymarket too in the form of the A90"

    But, but....roads are for cars! Any fule kow that! Why can't the cyclists just get out of the way of hard working, normally law abiding family motorists, b off and bother the dog walkers on the purpose built cycle paths they don't even use?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  3. Morningsider
    Member

    Sort of loath to dignify the KidsnotSuits thing with a response. However, it could sway some opinions - so here's a quick stab at a response:

    While criticising the Council for not undertaking Traffic Impact and Economic Impact assessments, KidsnotSuits make bold claims that the scheme will create "...phenomenal congestion" and "...wreck 26 Roseburn businesses". There is no evidence to support these assertions. However, there is evidence that the creation of high quality cycle infrastructure is good for local business, as shown here:

    http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2015/03/the-complete-business-case-for-converting-street-parking-into-bike-lanes/387595/

    It is worth noting that the Council states that traffic modelling is currently "ongoing" - which seems reasonable given the final design of the scheme is yet to be approved.

    The scheme will also make Roseburn Terrace and Wester Coates safer and more pleasant for pedestrians. Pedestrians will be able to cross the road in one go, which is both quicker and safer for people on foot than the current two-stage crossings.

    The scheme also involves some pavement widening and continuous pavements across side streets. More space and safer crossings at side streets are of particular benefit to people with mobility problems and people pushing prams and buggies as they remove changes in pavement levels and give clear priority to pedestrians over turning vehicles.

    The proposed alternative (National Cycle Network route 1) has singularly failed to encourage people to cycle from the west of the city, as it is convoluted, unable to cope with high numbers of bikes and involves dangerous junctions and cycling in close proximity to trams and over slippy tram lines.

    It is worth remembering that traffic congestion, and associated air pollution, is caused by too many vehicles travelling at the same time on the same roads. The historic street layout in Edinburgh cannot be substantially changed, so any solution to congestion problems requires people to travel by other means. Improving the attractiveness of cycling, walking and public transport is key to people switching modes. This scheme will substantially improve the attractiveness of cycling in the city - hopefully encouraging the "suits" to cycle to work with their kids to school. It doesn't have to be one vs. the other - we will all benefit from this investment.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  4. Stickman
    Member

    Morningsider: good response.

    Although this Kids Not Suits bloke seems to be a bit of a green-ink letter writer, there is the chance people will take bits of his argument seriously.

    Have the council done any engagement with the business owners, other than at the drop-ins?

    If this scheme doesn't happen then I think we can abandon any hope of anything similar happening anywhere else in Edinburgh.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  5. ARobComp
    Member

    Oh Hai.

    So @popscotland just tweeted some supportive messaging if anyone fancied giving it a RT (hello everyone - long time no see)

    Posted 8 years ago #

  6. stiltskin
    Member

    Well, just back from the consultation. The protest group is 3 people standing outside. One of whom is laughably wearing Hi-viz & a helmet presumuaably to show that he is a cyclist. (Unless he is a particularly nervous pedestrian) Good job I had my string-backed gloves on to prove that I am a car driver. They are claiming 1000 anti signatures with 900+ being on paper. Seems pretty fishy to me.
    The plans aren't perfect, especially around St Andrews Square, but they are quite bold for Edinburgh. There were quite a few cyclists looking at the proposals as well as some more elderly people who seem to make up the anti-vote: They seemed to be coming up with any excuse to rubbish the ideas. (The terrible risks involved in crossing a cycle lane to get to a bus stop for example.) I think the Roseburn section is a litmus test as to whether the Council has the stomach to make meaningful change in the face of an entrenched motoring lobby. I am tempted to go to the Community Council meeting on Wednesday, but the timing is a bit tight for me, sadly.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  7. Stickman
    Member

    Walked past the "protest" and the EEN are coming to take photos at 6. Utterly, utterly pointless trying to engage with the bloke. He's convinced that only 2 lanes will exist, despite what the council people have said - he kept pointing at a printout and refused to ask the guys inside responsible for the plans what the true position was. I was told that I had my facts and he has his, that other people were listening to.

    Then an old woman said "Cyclists! I'm nearly killed by them every day!"

    The Roseburn Cafe owner then came out and told me I was taking food out of his family's mouth.

    So essentially around 50 people are trying to derail plans that affect an entire city.

    I spoke to HankChief as I left; hopefully he may have more luck than me. It was like the EEN comments section in the flesh. Life is too short to deal with that: let them have their little photo op.

    I think the Roseburn section is a litmus test as to whether the Council has the stomach to make meaningful change in the face of an entrenched motoring lobby.

    If they cave in then the council might as well abandon any pledges, targets, emission reduction aims. They'll be exposed for exactly what they are: empty, meaningless rhetoric.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  8. LivM
    Member

    All the shops will close, all the old people living nearby will starve because they can't buy food, but its ok because they'll probably have been killed by the marauding cyclists going through at 1000 miles an hour first.
    Roseburn is not a destination at the moment. It's to be hoped that improving the amenity of the street will encourage people to linger longer, but it's hard to convince the scaremongers that things could ever be better than they already are.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  9. chdot
    Admin

    "

    Then an old woman said "Cyclists! I'm nearly killed by them every day!"

    "

    Right.

    So is that the ones that are cycling on the pavement because they are too scared to cycle on the road?

    Or the ones on the road with no lights?

    At least cars are always where they should be, and well lit - and no chance of crossing the road when they are around, so no chance of them 'trying to kill' people.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  10. chdot
    Admin

    "

    The Roseburn Cafe owner then came out and told me I was taking food out of his family's mouth.

    "

    Must be a really good cafe if all its customers drive there, when they could go anywhere in Edinburgh!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  11. Stickman
    Member

    Meant to say, I see that Murrayfield Community Council are taking a balanced view to all this: their notice board on Coltbridge has the petition but nothing giving the "pro" side.

    I also took a walk along Roseburn Terrace. If I was a shop owner who was concerned that a proposal was going to close me down then I would put a poster up in the window. Not a single shop had any sign of the petition in their windows. Perhaps it's not a unanimous view after all?

    Posted 8 years ago #

  12. ih
    Member

    id "Cyclists! I'm nearly killed by them every day!"

    When I'm pedestrianising, I'm nearly killed by motorists 100s of times a day. Some of them drive past me with only a few feet to spare. Fortunately, most of them are on the road so I live to walk another day. I expect all the cyclists passing this woman show equal, if not more, consideration for her safety.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  13. Harts Cyclery
    Member

    I went along, chatted to the protest chap on the way in. What a clown. Thinks lanes will increase congestion and that the answer to our woes are electric cars...

    Was really quite angry that some one who rides a bike could be so blind to the obvious benefits in the scheme. Anyway, I sarcastically thanked him for undermining everything that anyone who cares about cycling is trying to achieve.

    Inside there were a depressing number of old people who were determined to believe that benefits to the public realm for walking and cycling were some how anti-elderly people. Presumably they drive from one side of Roseburn to the other....

    However, I spoke to the Council representatives (the Project Manager in particular, Allan) and was MASSIVELY encouraged by the things he was saying. I was quoting Copenhagenize stuff at him and he knew what I was talking about. He'd seen the A-to-B ism graphic. He also gave away a few clues about the future of George St and, again, very promising.

    In short, despite the idiots, I think it'll go ahead pretty much as planned and, despite it's short-comings, is a hugely positive thing for cycling in Edinburgh.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  14. Stickman
    Member

    Yeah, I spoke to the council guys at the previous consultation and was impressed with them; they deserve respect for having to stand and listen while people tell them that cyclists are the cause of all the world's problems. The younger chap (can't remember his name) said there were several other cycling plans in the pipeline as well that would be coming out later in the year.

    I'm not as confident: I'm worried that the council don't have much political capital after the trams problems. Councillors like Frank Ross and Jeremy Balfour don't give a monkeys about our views and Paul Eadie is taking a weaselly position.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  15. DdF
    Member

    @Harts "I spoke to the Council representatives (the Project Manager in particular, Allan) and was MASSIVELY encouraged" ... "I think it'll go ahead pretty much as planned"

    Yes, I agree, the officers are impressive. However, remember that the final decision is made by elected councillors, not by officers, and they don't always follow officer recommendations.

    In that respect it is also fairly hopeful at the moment, but remember that the local SNP and Tory councillors have signed the anti-petition.

    The next council elections are May 2017 and I suspect it's touch and go whether work will have begun by then [there are still detailed plans to prepare, TROs to advertise to the public, utilities to deal with, and so on] so the future could be less certain than it looks now, depending on the outcome of that election.

    In fact a whole lot of Edinburgh cycling decisions and policies may depend on that election! There may be different control of the council and different policies. It's also individual councillors as well as policies - there may well be a new transport convener - at present it's Lesley Hinds who is pretty positive on cycling, but over the years they have varied hugely.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  16. chdot
    Admin

    Seems to be popular for breakfasts.

    http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g186525-d782798-r338881128-Roseburn_cafe-Edinburgh_Scotland.html

    STILL seems unlikely that many customers drive there.

    Wots the bike parking like??

    Posted 8 years ago #

  17. Rosie
    Member

    Bike parking is pretty thin. There is one U type stand near the Roseburn Cafe and another on the other side of the road.

    Those sitting in Roseburn Cafe would be walking, but I imagine others will stop for a carry out coffee and roll.

    The guy who runs a dog accessories shop kept on going on about loading - but there is a loading bay on that side of the road. He was very aggressive.

    There are two pubs and several hairdressers and 3 cafes - can't believe people park to go there.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  18. Stickman
    Member

    "The guy who runs a dog accessories shop kept on going on about loading - but there is a loading bay on that side of the road. He was very aggressive."

    Oh, so his webpage extolling the virtues of getting to his shop on foot and by bike is just marketing BS then? Disappointing. Won't be using him when I get dog treats. Just Dogs in Stockbridge for me in future.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  19. crowriver
    Member

    It's funny how the anti-cycling ranters are coming out of the woodwork. I'm reminded of the outrage fomented amongst the traders of Leith Walk when it was mooted that parking and loading spaces might have restrictions placed on them, moved, etc.

    What I find depressing is that cyclists are viewed as the enemy. Shows that we are only tolerated as long as our needs don't conflict with those of motorists. Then it's gloves off!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  20. LivM
    Member

    A lot of taxis seem to be "parked" in Roseburn around lunchtime: I guess that they are grabbing a takeaway from the cafe or Vigos. I have only ever once shopped in Roseburn by car, and that was to pick up some cupcakes on the way to work at about 8 mo pregnant (not cycling with that bump). I can see that the cake shop would have concerns about carrying fragile wedding cakes across the road to a van, but I'm not sure if they actually make the cakes there or if they have a kitchen elsewhere that does the actual work.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  21. Rosie
    Member

    House of Hound

    "Drive: The Store is siuated on the main thoroughfare from the City Centre to the Airport and beyond, there is ample free parking in the area, and for collecting larger items you can easliy park on our doorstep between 9.30am and 4pm on weekdays and at any hour at the weekend! "

    Parking is free on Roseburn Street. The ceramics & furniture stores opposite the primary school are drivers' destinations at the weekend.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  22. chdot
    Admin

    "

    A protest is due to take place later against new cycle lanes in Edinburgh

    "

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-35344055

    Posted 8 years ago #

  23. neddie
    Member

    I went to the consultation just before 5.

    I managed to engage the loony "kidsnotsuits" guy for at least 20 minutes, thereby preventing him from enlisting any more "antis" during that time. And he had a hard job handing out leaflets while talking to me. He admitted that he cycled along the pavement to get from the NEPN to Roseburn Park, to which I replied, "well clearly there is a need for infrastructure if you are cycling on the pavement"! In the end he was desperate to get rid of me.

    I then spoke to the Roseburn cafe owner who seemed decent, but was convinced his business was going to die. He said he gets most of his trade from passing trade vans (decorators, plumbers, etc) who nip in for a breakfast roll. He admitted that the vans that stop for breakfast park in the active bus lane. He was absolutely convinced that no van driver would park round the corner, walk round and spend more time in his & other shops. I tried to convince him that local businesses had benefitted from cycle lanes in places like New York and Dublin, but he just kept saying that Roseburn is [somehow?] different.

    While I was there a younger guy turned up on a baker's bike. He seemed pretty savvy and gave the cafe and loony guys a bit of a run for their money.

    Inside I spoke to an older couple who lived up in Murrayfield. His main objection was that the loading bay and bus lane on one side was going. We chatted for a while. He then stated that "A historic town like Edinburgh was not built for bicycles". This left me flabbergasted for a moment, but I responded by saying that, "You could turn that around by saying that Edinburgh was not built for motor cars". This caused Chris Brace to laugh out loud!

    Posted 8 years ago #

  24. Claire
    Member

    I made a pit stop on the way home to lend my support to the proposals. Some quite shouty local business owners abusing the council officers and an old lady telling me she was practically mown down by a cyclist on the pavement and we should pay road tax blah blah. She was pretty irate when I tried to rebuff any of these comments in a friendly way. I dunno what it is about old ladies whinging at me about cyclists and then being surprised and disgusted when I don't agree with them and attempt to put across an alternative point.

    She said she'd lived in the area for 11 years, as if that made her perspective valid and mine a useless contribution. She wasn't very happy when I told her I had over a decade's residency on her. Haha! This is the level of nonsense the conversation was at, deary me.

    Anyway, other than the mad people inside and the chap standing outside in the cold with his petition, I had some productive chats with the council staff and submitted a response in the positive.

    Seemed a reasonable mix of attendees but I popped in around 6.30 so not sure if it was representative of the day.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  25. chdot
    Admin

    "While I was there a younger guy turned up on a baker's bike."

    Might be someone on this page...

    Posted 8 years ago #

  26. chdot
    Admin

    Got this from someone at the Council today (not CB!)

    "

    Better make sure people write and support!

    "

    Posted 8 years ago #

  27. chdot
    Admin

    Of course part of 'the problem' is that CEC is largely billing it as "cycling" -

    "

    Roseburn to Leith Walk cycle route

    "

    http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/roseburntoleith

    Well obviously it is.

    BUT

    C/should be about so much more.

    It could be argued that this is just the latest development brought about by years of successful campaigning by Spokes.

    However, in spite of what some EN commenters (and some 'local businesspeople') believe, the "cycle lobby" - if you're reading this you are probably part of it - isn't that powerful.

    'We' just want Edinburgh to have some of the things that other places take for granted. This has happened for years in various parts of mainland Europe and now, quite rapidly, in progressive cities in North America.

    It's NOT just about "cycle facilities", it's about better transport options, nicer places to live/work, less noise/air pollution/stress etc.

    So it would help if CEC talked more about transport corridors and (MORE IMPORTANT) improving local neighbourhoods/retail environments etc.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  28. Rob
    Member

    "an old lady telling me she was practically mown down by a cyclist on the pavement"

    "[kidsnotsuits] admitted that he cycled along the pavement to get from the NEPN to Roseburn Park"

    What if ... that would be too perfect wouldn't it?

    Anyway, it always baffles me when people object to cycling infrastructure then moan about cyclists on the pavement.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  29. Claire
    Member

    The council chap I spoke to said there was a fair bit of opposition from the older demographic in the area, based on fear of bikes, being knocked over, aggressive cycling and so on. This I heard with a tinge of sadness; the humble bike offers fantastic mobility for older people and they are one of the very groups of people that infrastructure schemes like this one aim to make cycling accessible to. Eight to 80 should be the norm, always depressing to hear such entrenched fear to something that is so beneficial. Sigh.

    Posted 8 years ago #

  30. DdF
    Member

    Re the existing route via Haymarket Yards - here are 3 reports Spokes has received in the last 18 months - they are all copies of emails the victims had also reported to the council. Anonymised here, but otherwise direct quotes from emails. So much for this being 'safer' as some of the antis have claimed.

    August 2015
    I am reporting a crash caused by the tram tracks that my daughter Beth had this afternoon.
    She was travelling eastwards along Haymarket yards and had started the short uphill stretch to Haymerket Terrace. About 1/2 way up, going quite slowly, her front wheel slipped on the most westerly tram track and she fell to the ground. Fortunately she was unhurt though a small baggage carrier was bent out of shape and may need to be replaced. Her tyres are wide and could not have become jammed in the tracks.

    Jan 2015
    I am reporting my cycle accident which happened having turned left at the lights at Clifton/Haymarket terrace into Haymarket Yards. While crossing over to the (ridiculously narrow) marked cycle path, my front wheel slipped along the wet steel of the tram track, getting stuck in the actual track groove. I was thrown from my bike, bruising my elbow and hands. I also hurt my back, resulting in pain across my ribs and stomach for the next 2 days. I have the details of 2 witnesses as well as pictures of the bruising. Luckily, the 2 people who checked I was ok managed to help me up before the next airport-bound tram came around the corner.

    June 2014
    I was cycling home from work and was crossing over the tracks at Haymarket Yards (coming down the hill from haymarket station) and hit them at the wrong angle and crashed. Two passerbys helped me off the road and I got a taxi home with my bike (which had a buckled front wheel from the crash). I sprained an ankle and a wrist, and seem to have caused more serious damage to my knee as it still hasn't recovered now - i can't put pressure on the top of my knee without pain.
    I was a week into cycling from home to work and trying to replace my daily commute with a bike when I crashed. I haven't cycled to work since, as the crash shook me up quite a bit and I need to find an alternate route that doesn't involve tram tracks, as I won't go near those things again. Even taken at the right angle, they are dangerous and slippery, especially when there are cars and trams all around you.

    Posted 8 years ago #

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