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Car use up, public transport use down

(60 posts)
  • Started 9 years ago by Stickman
  • Latest reply from LaidBack

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  1. gibbo
    Member

    @IWRATS

    "Every measure he talked about was to do with demand mananagement. There was no talk, and he specifically poo-pooed any thought, of compelling people to do anything, which was interesting."

    Forcing people is usually a bad thing. And it's an especially bad thing if you're a politician in a democracy.

    I think of it as a set of scales ("justice scales", not bathroom scales).

    In order to change behaviour without force, you add to the side you want, and take away from the side you don't want.

    To go back to my comments about how the bus is worse in every way to a car (for 3m journeys), the easiest way to give buses an advantage is to make buses free.

    The cost is minimal as the buses are already being paid for by bus users. All we'd be doing is collecting the same amount of money via tax.

    It wouldn't eliminate car use, but it would mean that cars would be - as they should be - the expensive form of city travel.

    And that would mean less car use.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  2. Nelly
    Member

    What we need is more days like thursday - enormous traffic jams, some people in my work sat in the car for an hour from Davidsons Mains to Edin Park..........then went home.

    I helpfully suggested that they should have gone home and dragged the dusty bike out the garage - they would have been at work in 20 minutes.

    My boss takes between an hour and two hours to drive to work each way (Glasgow to Edin Park). It gets him down. He would use the train, but his train journey to Edin Park Station is simply tortuous - and thats the reality in this country, we dont provide good intercity public transport because there is no demand.

    Chicken / Egg

    Carrot / Stick

    Posted 9 years ago #
  3. crowriver
    Member

    The "demand management" argument ignores the history.

    We used to have an extensive rail network. It was popular and well used. Then, competition from motor vehicles (first buses then cars) reduced demand. Instead of attempting to incentivise rail travel, the government just closed lots of stations and lines, focused on "intercity" travel and left the rest to the car. In parallel, the government started building a network of motorways which competed with the railways for intercity travel and drove further demand for car use.

    We've had around 60 years' worth of incentivising travel by private car, and it has become so dominant in our culture that most people literally cannot imagine travelling any other way. It's far easier politically for governments to say they'll make car drivers' lives "better" by building new roads than it is for them to try and change people's behaviour or make them feel their "choice" is not supported or approved of.

    The SNP are populists. They don't want to frighten the horses. They'll try to keep "everyone" happy, but if that doesn't work, the majority will do.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  4. crowriver
    Member

    Oh let's not forget that society's values have been shaped for decades by commercial interests who want them to keep buying into the "great car economy" ((c) M. Thatcher).

    I suppose a popular image of the freedom of driving would be something like this:

    Whereas a popular image of the presumed impracticality of cycling might be something like this:

    Hence cyclists are referred to as "brave" by work colleagues, and so on.....most people would never consider cycling, and those that would are terrified of their fellow drivers who are out there enjoying their "freedom" at the expense of others...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  5. crowriver
    Member

    Can anyone tell me how SNP transport policy differs substantially from Conservative transport policy under Cameron? Which was explicitly influenced by this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_for_Prosperity

    Posted 9 years ago #
  6. Arellcat
    Moderator

    presumed impracticality of cycling might be something like this

    Cycling on the M1? Blimey, not even slightly dangerous or illegal, that one.

    (location is J9, by the way)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  7. crowriver
    Member

    I chose the image because it so perfectly expressed the "mind's eye" view of many motorists as to the impractical, unpleasant and dangerous nature of cycling. And of course that cyclists are irresponsible and shouldn't be on the road at all.

    It was taken from a story (in a driving magazine) about some nutter who was arrested in 2013 while attempting to cycle the M1 - I presume he was lost!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-24518094

    The original Twitter feed is worth a read, with folk saying the M1 was probably safer than the alternative routes, complaining about the lack of a proper cycle route to London, etc.

    https://twitter.com/roadpoliceBCH/status/389348559512174592

    Here's a similar report from this year:

    http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/cyclist-escorted-off-m1-soon-after-landing-at-luton-airport-160844

    Posted 9 years ago #
  8. HankChief
    Member

    I put the excellent POP graphic/article to Toni Giugliano via twitter.

    Interesting response:

    "@hank_chief @theSNP Agreed need to do more. essential projects like Forth Bridge Borders R & A9 neglected by Lab/Libs had to happen 1/2

    @hank_chief @theSNP but it's fair that funding shld be identified to transform active travel & boost public transport. West Edin badly needs"

    Posted 9 years ago #
  9. crowriver
    Member

    "Borders R" "neglected by Lab/Libs"?

    Hmmm. Who was it that delayed the project while trying to fund it through non-conventional means? Who refused to pay the resulting cost increases caused by the delays? Who tried to tender the building of the railway to save money but then went back to Network Rail when the bidders withdrew? Who insisted on cutting the specification of the route in order to keep it within budget, resulting in a compromised railway with limited capacity?

    Whatever you think of Labour and the Lib Dems, they were not responsible for any of these shenanigans. That responsibility rests with the SNP. Was it another case of "toys oot the pram" at being burdened with this railway investment by the previous administration? Shades of Edinburgh Trams...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  10. Morningsider
    Member

    Hankchief - Might be worth asking why the A9 dualling "had to happen". It can't be because of the accident rate, as it is a relatively safe route, as shown by the EUROrap assessment:

    http://www.eurorap.org/partner-countries/great-britain/

    It isn't traffic flow or congestion, as traffic generally flows at the design speed of the road. Transport Scotland's Design Manual for Roads and Bridges (DMRB) assessment of the A9 states:

    "In summary, analysis of journey time data from Traffic Scotland indicates that average speeds are generally approaching 60 mph along the route. This is considered suitable for a road with mixed single and dual carriageway provision.

    Articulated HGV’s speed data, obtained through Transport Scotland’s speed limit review, indicated that the average speeds were slightly above 50 mph, irrespective of carriageway provision. The introduction of Average Speed Cameras along the route should impact on the average speeds, with a reduction in the number of vehicles exceeding the speed limit."

    See: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/sites/default/files/private/documents/projects/A9/A9%20PES%20DMRB%20Stage%201%20Assessment%20Report%20Final.pdf

    Don't get me started on the A96 dualling - it would be better value just to burn £3,000,000,000 in cash to help heat pensioners' homes in winter.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  11. LaidBack
    Member

    @Gibbo "the easiest way to give buses an advantage is to make buses free."

    How about a free travel pass with every new car? That way people can own a car and leave it at home without feeling that they are paying for something twice. Modern society is dedicated to owning stuff it doesn't use - why should cars be any different ;-)

    If cars sit about doing nothing they are not harmful and will meet emissions targets. VW in particular could provide free public transport to start with. This would help to redress the pollution caused by there errant 'green' claims. Reparation would go from them to various transport authorities. Non moving VW's would help make world greener and safer. This would also give them time to sort vehicles and should help reduce sales of their car sales to a manageable quantity while they figure out how to meet new stricter targets. Could be a good news story for them.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  12. Rosie
    Member

    @LaidBack I dunno about non moving cars not being a menace in themselves. They take up street space. Imagine if anyone could dump a large wooden box of exactly the same size on the street. They'd be had up for major littering or obstructing the highway. Their owners pave areas for them on front gardens - which exacerbates flooding. They take up one decent sized room called a garage - at a time of acute housing shortage. Though not such a nuisance and danger as a moving car, a parked car is certainly not a totally innocent object.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  13. A car that's not moving can be the first step to not having a car at all. In the 80s, an underground line opened close to my parents' house (in Nuremberg, Germany), and while all the roads were dug up, the council used the opportunity to install a couple of convenient bicycle paths into town along the main roads. So it became easier to commute by public transport and bicycle.

    We kept the car for a few more years because, well, everybody needs a car, right? But then the train system also became fast, efficient and convenient and we didn't even need it for holidays any more. So the car was sitting in the garage for years until my father was fed up and said: "We only move it to bring it to the annual service, and it costs a fortune". So it was sold and never missed, and the garage rented out to neighbours who needed to store some stuff.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  14. chdot
    Admin

    "while all the roads were dug up, the council used the opportunity to install a couple of convenient bicycle paths into town along the main roads. So it became easier to commute by public transport and bicycle."

    And of course when CEC did the tram it was 'we're really sorry about the mess, we'll put things back to normal as soon as possible'.

    Seriously missed opportunity.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  15. crowriver
    Member

    "Seriously missed opportunity."

    True, but a result of blinkered vision: they were focused on delivering the tram alone, then getting the roads "back to normal" (i.e.. clogged with motor traffic) ASAP. The possibility of cycle routes was not even considered.

    That is very much a problem of the transport/planning mentality in the UK (with the possible exception of London, which of course has a strategic transport authority separate from local/national government).

    Posted 9 years ago #
  16. sallyhinch
    Member

    Interesting: http://travelwest.info/project/ee-81-physical-activity-by-stealth-the-potential-health-benefits-of-a-workplace-transport-plan

    Effectively, they brought in parking charges to manage a parking problem and ended up increasing physical activity among their employees by far more than most dedicated 'active travel' policies ever manage ...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  17. It would have been an obvious idea to build a cycle path alongside the tram. Making the bridges a bit wider shouldn't have been so expensive. Might have been possible to have continuous straight off-road path from Haymarket to the airport with very little slope, with a connection to the Corstorphine Rd at the Zoo via the existing path.
    It could still be built (at higher cost). Perhaps we can suggest that to the Roseburn people as an alternative to Roseburn Terrace?

    Posted 9 years ago #
  18. chdot
    Admin

    "Perhaps we can suggest that to the Roseburn people as an alternative to Roseburn Terrace?"

    Not really an either or

    AND would be even more expensive!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  19. @sallyhinch Interesting read, thanks! They do point out that it was "accompanied by increasing the attractiveness of alternative modes of transport to the car".

    The main message (that active travel is more effective at changing behaviour than directly promoting physical activity) makes total sense to me. I'm one of those people who isn't interested in sports. You can give me as many free gym memberships as you want and I wouldn't go, for various reasons. But I enjoy cycling because it's useful, fast, gives me more freedom and flexibility etc.

    It seems to me that many people are like me. All the sporty types don't really understand that for many others sports is simply not enjoyable and we hate it, so all this "just try it and you'll see how great it is" doesn't work at all, just like when the religious types tell me "just read our holy book and it'll open your eyes".

    To be honest, I think cycling suffers from the close connection to sports in many peoples' minds. This isn't really the case on the continent. There is sports cycling of course, but most people I know just use the bike as transport and have absolutely no interest in any cycling sports events. For me, "Tour de France" was always the title of an Asterix volume, not anything related to bicycles.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  20. crowriver
    Member

    As we have discussed elsewhere at some length, cycling's link with sports in the eyes of many in the Anglophone sphere (US, Canada, Australia, Ireland too) is a result of marketing by the cycle manufacturers.

    This followed the huge decline in cycling as transport from the 1950s onwards, being replaced by buses and cars. The huge influence of the US and the American Dream, based around the automobile and freeways, plus the axing of railway lines and the building of motorways led to this decline.

    Cycling became niche market, no longer connected to transportation. So bicycle manufacturers (including Raleigh, at one time the largest in the world) attempted to win people over with sports/leisure cycling (and to a lesser extent, with folding bikes you could fit in the boot of your car). Thus persuading people to ditch their old roadster (transport) in favour of racers, folders, BMXs, MTBs, 'road' bikes, 'cross' bikes, 'gravel' bikes, etc. ad infinitum.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  21. sallyhinch
    Member

    I think you're always going to find a range of motivations for taking up cycling, and everyone is going to think their one is *the* one for persuading others. When I was at the women and cycling conference in York, a very strong theme that came up was young women who took up cycling as part of a challenge (like a sponsored event), usually with a group of friends or colleagues, getting over the whole 'cycling is weird' thing and who then became hooked. It couldn't be more different to my own experience but that doesn't make it something to be dismissed. However, nor does it mean that having every community in Scotland hold weekly sponsored bike rides is going to bring about Dutch levels of cycling (but a cycling equivalent of Park Run mightn't be a bad thing all the same)

    To me the important thing remains making sure that when people do get on a bike - whether to save on parking fees, raise money for charity, impress members of the other sex, or ward off aliens from the planet Zog - that they aren't immediately frightened back off it by a near death experience. Which doesn't mean that all those other triggers aren't important too, but they're not sustainable if the conditions aren't right.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  22. sallyhinch
    Member

    Oh and can't find the link now, but I came across an article which suggested that warning people about the dangers of inactivity is much more effective than telling them about the wonders of exercise. That I can relate to...

    Posted 9 years ago #
  23. @sallyhinch "ward off aliens from the planet Zog"

    Absolutely, this is well documented in the relevant research literature. For example, the "Zombie Survival Guide" notes that "people using bicycles to escape from infested areas have almost always fared better than those on foot" because the "bicycle is fast, quiet, muscle-powered and easy to maintain (...) the only vehicle you can pick up and carry if the terrain gets too rough."

    The guide also points out that the automobile ("what could be a greater deity of American techno-religion?") may appeal because "no matter what our age, gender, race, economic status, or geographic location, we are taught that this omnipotent machine, in all its wondrous forms, is the answer to our prayers."

    However, "Post-infestation studies, particularly in North America, have shown that most roads quickly become blocked by abandoned vehicles." Petrol will be difficult to find, and "more than one vehicle has been found alone in the wilderness, tank dry, blood-smeared cabin empty."

    So I absolutely agree that there are many different reasons to chose the bicycle.

    Of course, "chose caution over speed. (...) The last thing you want is to end up in a ditch, legs broken, bike trashed, with the shuffling of undead feet growing louder with each step."

    (Quotes from Max Brooks, "The Zombie Survival Guide - complete protection from the living dead", 2004, pages 103-4 and 108-9)

    Posted 9 years ago #
  24. sallyhinch
    Member

    Odd how infrequently people take to bikes during natural disaster movies though.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  25. chdot
    Admin

    "I came across an article which suggested that warning people about the dangers of inactivity is much more effective than telling them about the wonders of exercise"

    Yes but the first message doesn't seem to be getting across too well either. The term "couch potato" has hardly scared that many people!

    Posted 9 years ago #
  26. Roibeard
    Member

    I was heartened when "The Walking Dead" used a horse, however it was quickly displaced in favour of the usual motorised transport...

    I refer the house to a previously mentioned t-shirt, one for every sort of bike...

    Robert

    Posted 9 years ago #
  27. crowriver
    Member

    Bicycles can often be a practical means of escape, as this Belgian family demonstrate, fleeing the German invasion in 1940.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  28. DdF
    Member

    @Crowriver What I'm saying is, don't look for a Damascene conversion from the SNP to the cause of active travel. It ain't gonna happen. They only respond to real political pressure, i.e.. losing their majority would be a start. The carbon reduction targets were only agreed because the Greens forced the SNP's hand while in minority government. Five more years of "strong government" from the SNP will see us progress very little towards those targets.

    Completely agree. And that is also exactly what happened with the crucial CWSS fund. The SNP's first budget tried to scrap it completely, and this was only halted by a massive protest resulting in Patrick Harvie MSP making this a condition of the Greens supporting the budget (which mattered because the SNP didn't have an overall majority then).

    Incidentally, the CWSS fund was originally introduced by Sarah Boyack MSP when she was transport minister many years ago!! Some funding history here.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  29. @sallyhinch I found a metaanalysis on "fear appeal theory" in my collection; it's not specifically about bikes/inactivity so probably not the one you were looking for, but it reviews the general issue of health warnings (e.g. drastic images on tobacco packs). Short message: threatening messages have to be combined with a positive way forward.

    Peters, G.-J.Y., Ruiter, R.A.C., Kok, G., 2013. Threatening communication: a critical re-analysis and a revised meta-analytic test of fear appeal theory. Health Psychology Review 7, S8–S31. doi:10.1080/17437199.2012.703527

    I don't really have time to read it in detail just now, but my vague understanding (as a non-psychologist) is the following.

    "Fear appeals" are threatening or fear-arousing persuasive messages. The actual behaviour change should depend not only on the communicated threat level (e.g. very graphic cancer images on cigarette packs) but also on the "efficacy", i.e. if the recipient knows what she/he can realistically do in practice to reduce the threat. Efficacy depends not only on the message, but also the recipient's personality, values and knowledge.

    These two factors should in theory interact. If there is high efficacy, then a higher threat level should increase behaviour change. However, if the efficacy is low then a higher threat level does NOT increase behaviour change. Instead, it leads to defensive reactions, e.g. doubting the evidence.

    The authors of the meta-analysis write that there isn't a consensus whether this theory is actually correct, as different studies come to different conclusions, but their meta-analysis indicates that some studies have methodological problems and that the better studies indeed show the interaction between threat level and efficacy as predicted by fear appeal theory.

    This picture gets a bit more complicated by temporal discounting (the psychological effect that costs/benefits influence our decisions less if they are far in the future).

    Tobacco advertising is an example. If the efficacy is high, i.e. there is also information available on how to actually stop smoking, then in theory graphical images of lung cancer (high threat level) should work better than plain word warnings. However, if the recipient does not know how to stop smoking, or if it seems really difficult to do, they will more likely react defensively ("it won't affect me", "you can prove everything with statistics", "Churchill also smoked" etc.). Add temporal discounting (health effects are far in the future, but the hard task of behaviour change is now) and you are in trouble.

    Regarding climate change (which is why I was interested in this article), we can push out as much information about the projected risks as we can. But people react defensively if they don't know how they can actually do something about it (What's the point if China/USA don't stop?), or if it seems a complicated and difficult thing to do, like changing a big part of their lifestyle (How can I get along without car? Are we supposed to live in caves again? etc). They might then doubt the evidence for climate change or assume that we will always have the resources to cope with it. And again, temporal discounting: the risks are perceived to be far in the future, the "costs" of changing our lifestyle are now.

    Same with inactivity. You can tell people as much as you like about the risks, but if the solution (doing sports) appears (to the individual recipient!) really unappealing then you get defensive reaction, not behaviour change. Utility cycling, in this framework, can be a solution with high efficacy, as it's fairly low effort and brings immediate benefits too. Immediate benefits are good because they counteract the temporal discounting effect. The "weirdness" and perceived road dangers that you mention then reduce the efficacy of this action, in my understanding.

    Posted 9 years ago #
  30. LaidBack
    Member

    @Crowriver 'True, but a result of blinkered vision: they were focused on delivering the tram alone, then getting the roads "back to normal" (i.e.. clogged with motor traffic) ASAP. The possibility of cycle routes was not even considered.'

    Spokes organised a meeting in 2003? where the tram people were told to improve cycling. (You may well have been there @crowriver) Was a packed meeting and remember telling the tram project guy in the Q+As that what we needed was a segregated two way cycle lane on south side of Princes St. This would only have less crossings and allow access to park (see Arnie wanted to go there) to match projected increased use of bikes during the tram works.
    Response was I didn't understand how difficult this would be and not to worry as Bilfinger had delivered projects all over the civilised world and was able to take into account all factors. At that time people actually 'felt' that a planning pro might know more than someone that just happened to live and work in town. We won't get fooled again, will we?

    Posted 9 years ago #

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